+- VadaVaka (https://vadavaka.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Debates and Polls (https://vadavaka.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Debates (https://vadavaka.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: Are we alone in the Universe? (/showthread.php?tid=2561)
Are we alone in the Universe? - PuNkGirL - 03-04-2003
i personally do, i want to see how many other conspiracy theorists play RC :P
Are we alone in the Universe? - Wha? - 03-05-2003
Alone? That's a really good question. Given the 16 or so billion years since the big bang (more of a sudden decompression really), and the countless ways to construct the basic 'building blocks' of life, there should be life out there. In fact, with well over a hundred million galaxies, there has to be many planets inhabited by some form of self-replicating matter.
As for travel here, I remain skeptical. I figure if any race like us was out there with the technology to reach us, not only would they have done so, but we would have been destroyed long ago. Possibly even enslaved, though I doubt it would be much different. :cynical:
Really though, I fear being alone more than anything else. Although maybe we are the first species, and it is our destiny to create or influence all the others, like the First Ones out of Babylon5.
Are we alone in the Universe? - [CAKE]rUsh - 03-05-2003
Bah of course there are no other creatures out there in space. Simply becuase there are no creatures in space there is nothing in space and hence we don't exist.
Unless of course you can figure out how something can be created from nothing.(good luck)
Are we alone in the Universe? - g-boy - 03-05-2003
Alright, I have no idea what rush just said....
Anyway, without a doubt there is life elsewhere in the galaxy. I personally believe they've visited, at least some of the reports are true, not all abductions can be explained by sleep paralysis (although most can), and there are some amazing stories and UFO evidence. Now, I know what you're thinking, "he believes in all of that crap?" Well, not necessarily. In my eyes, a lot of what has happened is completely unexplained, and I get a feeling there is something to extraterrestrials visiting. I don't think people are randomly abducted and anally probed, I don't think every photo of a flying saucer is real. I just think there are some cases which are intriguing, and if there is a different explanation, that's cool. Say we were put in a situation where we found life on another planet and could visit and such. We wouldn't go to some primitive culture and announce ourselves, we'd have scientists and robots and such go in, take samples, test, study, blah blah. What to we do with creatures in the deep ocean? We abduct them, take them to the surface on our ships for research.
Some intriguing cases to look up... the Allagash Four, Lights over Phoenix, and the story that the movie "Fire in the Sky" is based on.
And to explain sleep paralysis. The body releases a neurotransmitter while you sleep to keep your body from acting out your dream. Sometimes you'll be almost asleep, thinking about something, and you twitch an arm. That's because this chemical has not been released yet. Sleep paralysis occurs when you wake up during REM sleep, the dreaming part of sleep. Your body is still paralyzed, and there is a residue of your dream. So basically, you are awake, cannot move, and you can hear voices, feel a presence, and may see things or feel like you're floating. It is one of the most terrifying experiences possible, and many abduction cases can be explained by this because people wake up, see aliens, think they are paralyzed by mind control, etc. I have experienced sleep paralysis once, and incidentally I had a dream about aliens at the time, and I felt like there was something in the room. I called out, but nothing came out. I fell asleep and realized what had happened later. Believe me, it was scary as hell. Anyway, just little tidbits for ya... I've researched some of the paranormal, and my dad used to investigate some of it.
Are we alone in the Universe? - Wha? - 03-05-2003
Before I start, I would like to warn you that I probably ramble a lot, and most likely topic jump a fair amount. It's just that there is a lot to say, and this is a forum, not a magazine.
I know a guy who himself has experienced SP, and did experience a lot of that stuff. Frankly, I can't allow myself to believe that any of it happened for real without sufficient evidence, though it seems like most people who go through it seem to believe it was real, since no evidence exists to the contrary. That is really cool though. I'm definately going to read up on this. It sounds like you're dreaming while you lie awake, and are conscious of the fact you cant move, so you get anxious, or even all out terrified, and the dream takes on that tone.
Come to think of it, that would be the opposite of sleep walking, so I guess it makes sense. The only problem is you need to have somebody there to witness the event to have any valid opinion of what went on.
There has to be more to it than random thoughts, or there would be no similarity in detail between accounts. Maybe some biochemical similarity between all people succeptable?
Is there any way to induce this state? I'm fascinated by this, and hope to experience it at some point.
Another thing, does anyone know how awake you are? ie. can you talk out loud
Oh, and can you remain awake long enough to come out of it, or do you fall back asleep?
Jeez, now you've kicked my scientific curiosity into gear. This is gonna be obsessing me for weeks now. :intrigued:
::PostScript::
I completely agree that we do similar things to "alien abductions" when researching other life on the planet. The only things I can see impeding such things from happening would be
a.) the distance needed to be traveled, and
b.) the conquering tendancies a species must have to be a top predator. Being on top of your food chain/web/whatever is a required feature of life which must be developed in a species to lead to intelligence. A rule based on the principle that always being wary of your surroundings makes it hard to be lazy and/or creative, thereby creating demand for (and mental means for creation of) tools.
::PostPostScript::
Quote:Unless of course you can figure out how something can be created from nothing.(good luck)Maybe not figure out, but it does happen. I would need to brush up on quantum physics, but I know it happens. Sort of a Schrödinger's Cat superposition. Well, exactly that, only jumping between the states, rather than existing in each simultaneously.
However, "It is a primitive form of thought that things either exist or do not exist". Or to think that there was ever a beginning beyond which was nothing. Just because it's hard to comprehend, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't logical. But again, I would need to brush up on quantum and astrophysics to give a better answer.
Are we alone in the Universe? - g-boy - 03-05-2003
You're exactly right, it is essentially dreaming while you are awake. It can manifest for different people in different ways, in other words, not everyone feels like they're being abducted. For example, I saw a show about it that was trying to explain the abduction phenomena with sleep paralysis. They have done plenty of research on it, and it does definitely occur. A lot of people can have visions of little grey men with big eyes, float off their beds, be paralyzed, and so forth. This one guy, a deeply religious man, experienced a demon-like creature grab his feet and drag him off his bed. Their explanation is that he is religious, so a terrifying experience for a religious person occurred. For the rest of us, we can be influenced by the media and our knowledge of alien abductions, and that comes out. They also argue that in the past, people experienced sleep paralysis but saw the incubus instead, or something like that.
So to answer why they're similar, it's not completely known. You wouldn't think that experiences would be so strikingly similar, other than the fact that the symptoms are usually the same. One, completely paralyzed to the point that you cannot speak, pretty much all you can do is move your eyes (that's what I experienced). Everyone has the same feeling of complete terror. Everyone usually feels a presence in the room. This is where it changes for people, a lot may see shapes, or they see beings, or they see aliens in detail. Some may feel like they're floating and being dragged off. Some hear weird sounds, like footsteps. I only experienced the paralysis, feeling of terror and presence of something in the room. They could be similar because we all hear about how abductions are supposed to occur, and that comes out in the dream we have during the paralysis. I actually remember consciously thinking, "Am I being abducted? People report being paralyzed and taken away." Then you have to argue, where did the first experience come from then?
So far I don't know if it can be induced, probably not. Perhaps they can make a drug that causes the person to awaken and yet the neurotransmitter continues to flow and make you paralyzed. But then, would the same experience occur? And chances are you will experience it. I forgot the statistic, but essentially most people will experience sleep paralysis at least once in their life. I am glad mine wasn't as terrifying as some of these people. Maybe now that you know more about it, it could occur just because it exists in your brain.
From what I remember, I fell back to sleep. You're not completely awake, just awake long enough to remember it. That's the amazing part, it can occur, and you will remember it the next morning, and it gives you chills. But no, you do not become completely awake. Come to think of it, maybe it does occur more often than we think, and don't remember the experience. The human brain usually loses any information from the last five minutes before you fall asleep.
I don't like the argument of the distance traveled thing. One, perhaps they have "space stations" in multiple solar systems, and have established colonies. If they are so advanced (probably millions of years more than us), they could avoid our detection considering we're the only intelligent lifeform in this solar system. That's a bit far off, but the alternative is that they have no trouble travelling these far distances, via wormholes or warp, or something we don't even know about. Is it really that unlikely? Imagine how our technology has changed for travel in the last 100 years... and imagine if we can improve upon it by millions? We cannot assume that all of our scientific knowledge has come to a stop, like we know everything, and technology can only go so far, blah blah. They said the same thing about the damn moon.
Perhaps they have a dominating tendency, that's a cynical point of view. Perhaps after so long they shed that instinct to dominate lower species. Besides that, it's not like we're just some slugs on a barren planet. We do have technology and are on the rise, they probably would like to know more about us, perhaps a porthole into their own past. If we found alien species that had the capacity for language and technology, we'd be more fascinated and not wanna enslave them.
Are we alone in the Universe? - Wha? - 03-05-2003
The urge to control and possess power is the foremost reason to expand territory. It's what happened on this planet. So odds are it occurs elsewhere. Hopefully we are the only ones left to outgrow it.
I never liked that distance argument either, I always bring it up because it is a harsh reality, and needs to be acknowledged regardless.
Let me alter it a bit for the sake of refreshing the stale lines that seem to have attached themselves to discussions of this type. The nearest star is just over 4 years travel from here at 100% light speed. If there is life out there that can actually travel the countless millions of lightyears in interstellar space, they are looking at a vast starscape, one from their perspective, with their own constalations and whatnot.
To find life is quite challenging when the only way to observe us would be to see the earth many aeons before Homo sapiens sapiens even began to evolve.
Let's assume they are enlightened scientists and explorers. They then would be looking quite extensively at everything they come across, in order to further their own understanding. That leaves billions of years before the first exploration team reaches us. Since this is unlikely, let's use a less idealized example; Interstellar Biologists.
Biologists would have no interest in rock formations or mineral compositions except in remote cases. They would only look for life, and would only look at systems that can create life as they know it. They would not interfere with a species in it's development, nor use force to subdue it. However, the odds are always agaisnt them finding us, no matter how advanced they are. Space is just too massive. If they have already found us however, things would be as they are now.
* Wha? furls brow
There are just too many questions, and nowhere near enough facts to formulate answers. It doesn't help that every conversation about aliens turns into one about how the government is covering the existance of aliens up, and it irritates me no end. I loathe conspiracy theories. They just stem from the natural muistrust of government by the people under it.
In order to keep this from going that direction, let me close with this.
Whether we are alone or not is a boolean question. If we are, then people are just seeing things. If we aren't then there are too many possibilities to list. I hope we aren't alone, though I fear we are.
Are we alone in the Universe? - Gwarsbane - 03-06-2003
This is how I simply put it...
I have seen no real evidence that we are alone, but I have also seen no real evidence that we are not. If we are alone then we must be a mistake, I don't like to think of earth as a mistake.
Are we alone in the Universe? - [CAKE]rUsh - 03-06-2003
Wha?,Mar 6 2003, 01:40 AM Wrote:::PostPostScript::Ok...Well admittedly i must say that we do actually exist any arguement i might have otherwise would be compromized by the fact that i am here to argue at all.
Quote:Unless of course you can figure out how something can be created from nothing.(good luck)Maybe not figure out, but it does happen. I would need to brush up on quantum physics, but I know it happens. Sort of a Schrödinger's Cat superposition. Well, exactly that, only jumping between the states, rather than existing in each simultaneously.
However, "It is a primitive form of thought that things either exist or do not exist". Or to think that there was ever a beginning beyond which was nothing. Just because it's hard to comprehend, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't logical. But again, I would need to brush up on quantum and astrophysics to give a better answer.
the idea that matter always existed seems a bit far fetched to me so i stand by my opinion that at some point matter did not exist in the universe.
As to Aliens existing i'd bet that do. Since we exist there is a definite possibilty for life to exist on a world. Given enough worlds chances are that more than one would contain life. whether intelligent alien life exists...i can't say for sure but i'd guess that they do.
Are we alone in the Universe? - g-boy - 03-06-2003
There is too much to say and there is too much we don't know to get into the matter/antimatter-always-existed-big-bang-theory discussion. I will say this, there is virtually no doubt that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the univserse and in our galaxy. The universe we do not even know the size of, and from what we can see there are an immense amount of galaxies. Within our own galaxy there are trillions of stars. All it takes is a planet orbiting a star, with the elements necessary for life. This is for life as WE know it, there is possibility of life without being carbon-based and existing in the same conditions as we do. Besides, we know life can exist at the bottom of our oceans in tremendous heat and what once was thought of as toxic chemicals, and they actually thrive on it. These extremophiles do exist, and there are even some fungal spores that can be outside of our atmosphere, return to Earth, and grow. There is a good chance that life exists in a massive ocean on Europa, and that it possibly once existed on Mars. If it is not limited to Earth in our solar system, and not limited to room temperature climates with plenty of oxygen, sunlight, and/or food, then one must imagine that life (and therefore intelligent life) is a common occurrance in this and other galaxies.
Are we alone in the Universe? - noxious - 03-07-2003
I will refrane from posting in this thread because frankly I find such debate frivolous at best. If other life exists there will be a time when it becomes self-evident, until then it'll be just like it's been for centuries.