Does the media play into our fears?

[kermit]

i disagree a little bit with tak's notion that we are the chief target of their hatred because of their (islamic zealots) fundamentalist agenda. that agenda is an effect rather than a cause brought on by a u.s. presence in the region. bin laden grew up seeing u.s. marines stationed in his native saudi arabia. if we are to believe in the sovereignty of nation states, then it is in our best interest to uphold that principle and not treat the world as our playground. garbage in, garbage out.

having said this, i support the military action that is ongoing in afghanistan...and i'm also in favor of using intelligent means to bring bin laden to justice. the united states showed patience and good judgement regarding taliban-led afghanistan in my best judgement. foreign policy is not something you can turn on and off like a switch...it always follows some precedent. so saying that we should just change our foreign policy immediately is akin to holding up your hand to protect yourself from the onslought of water when the dam bursts. staying with this analogy, you can argue that we could have done more to secure the structure of the dam, but guess what?; it has already burst and this kind of insight, while possibly illuminating, is impractical at this juncture.

american foreign policy does need substantial work and i hope we can get on track and develop strategies that respect the sovereignty of nation states as well as measures to protect their autonomy. a good start would be to completely pull out troops from japan, germany, south korea, saudi arabia, the phillipines as well as others. no, i didn't mention iraq because now that we've placed ourselves in this grave position, great care must be taken to ensure that the transition of authority goes smoothly and with a minimum of fear, intimidation and violence from baath hooligans and the like. iraq must be treated similarly like other post-war nations. however, i don't think a long term united states or western presence would be desired or necessary.

you say with a hearty thumb up that we shouldn't debate 9-11. given the gravity of the 'example', i find that an unwelcome request. as far as pointing fingers, it has been believed for quite a while prior to the event that bin laden was largely responsible for the african embassy bombings as well as the first wtc bombing during clinton's administration. why were fingers sharply pointed at islamic funamentalists right after the fbi building in oklahoma was bombed by explosive nitrate? probably because islamic fundamentalists have a long history of being involved in terrorist attacks. i should add that of course i found the beatings of innocent muslim-american people deplorable, inexcusable and prosecutable but i pointed fingers at islamic zealots as well after the bombing. but i'm not sorry because, at the time, it seemed that they were the most viable culprits. homegrown u.s. militias simply had not orchestrated an attack of that nature before. the rhetoric was always there perhaps but that is all they really had other than the assassinations of individuals and small time bank robberies.

yes, the media plays too big a role in shaping the opinions and stereotypes of people but it is a defensive mechanism inate in all of us that leads us to 'points fingers' and make off-the-cuff accusations. while you should never let the direction that your finger points dictate your actions, hunches in themselves are not a bad thing. as a narcotics officer, you may use these hunches to develop leads in cases and possibly later gather sufficient evidence to either exonerate or indite your suspects. mainstream media is biased because it is run by people like you and like me. and just like us, they have to eat, pay bills and please wealthier individuals. the underground media is also biased because to attract attention, it often feels it has to combat the biases of the mainstream media with their own. otherwise, there truly is no point and information would just be rehashed.

well, i don't know if gave you the suggestions you were asking for but there ya have it.:thumb:

[Guest]

actually.....that was pretty good .asm.

One thing you brought to mind. I honestly don't see Bin Laden as a true Islamic Fundamentalist. I see him
as someone who is smarter than that, and he is using his influence to fool his followers into his agenda. He
is using their beliefs to get them to do what he wants.

[[CAKE]anonymity]

Well based on the essence of 9-11 I did expect a lot more posts about it, I think you did well to keep it to a minimum like I asked thank you.

It is true that I will become a cop and hopefully into narcotics and that I will have to rely on some hunches more then once. But if I am wrong, the worst case is that I prove to myself I am wrong and I go follow another lead or hunch.

I will use a crime analogy because I think crime and terrorism is quite similar, especially with the responses to it. So far what the US is doing is like what a home owner living in fear would do. They would bar their windows, get expensive security systems, guard dogs, and would buy a firearm. It seems that people are ok with having criminals at their doorstep wanting to get in to hurt or steal from you, rather then being able to walk freely outside. Wouldn’t you prefer that criminals and terrorists didn’t exist? So you don’t need to stop everyone with a beard and a hat for questioning? My god you are one step away from detaining santa because of a beard and bizarre headwear. This is not a world I want to live in. I want to go to Jerusalem because of its incredible spiritual significance, history and beauty.

Tak what you are suggesting is mass genocide on a larger scale then what happened in Germany in the 30's and 40's. Let’s look for a second on why Hitler did that, he felt that the Jews were the problem in Germany and pointed the finger at them. Just like what you just did. The US is so concerned about terrorism and blames a majority of the problems on terrorism. Like what happened in Germany, now you are suggest killing millions of them. I can’t and will not live in a world like that. It is unacceptable to think that killing on any level will accomplish any good, we just try to justify it to ourselves so we don’t have to feel guilt.

Essentially you want to kill them for their beliefs, no matter how extreme, it is a belief. You are just as extreme now.

[Guest]

Hah. I already commented on my own website about the fact that everyone is individual. One person sees something another doesn't... Hell, I can be quite abstract in my way of thinking but it helps to rationalise and question my own judgement.

Why would you question your own judgement ? Because to not do so means that you don't truely know why you do something, you do it just because you do or you believe it right. In the end, Society is built around fitting in and no matter what people say, it's true. There are different levels to this but essentially, if you don't fit with the rules, your doing something illegal or potentially abusive.

Does the media help to set these rules of society ? Without a doubt. After all, who else can broadcast to the millions that Weapons Of Mass Destruction is the reason we are going after Saddam, or that Bin Laden was the person behind the group behind the 9/11 attacks?

I certainly can't... can you ?

[evil_admin]

Then They Came for Me
by Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.

First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California, is indebted to the inspiration of Rev. Martin Niemoller (1937).

[[CAKE]anonymity]

Why would you question your own judgement ? Because to not do so means that you don't truely know why you do something, you do it just because you do or you believe it right. In the end, Society is built around fitting in and no matter what people say, it's true. There are different levels to this but essentially, if you don't fit with the rules, your doing something illegal or potentially abusive.

I disagree a lot with doing something illegal or abusive bit. Sinice it is true that social norms do dictate a lot of the laws that come into play they do not determine what is or isnt legal. Example:

Homosexuals are alienated because they dont fit in with societies rules. They are berated and belittled to no extent for doing nothing wrong, nothing illegal or abusive in the sense.

No matter how alienated you are, there will always be some group that shares your view or opinion, even if you have to start that group. Essentially, if everyone didnt fit in, everyone would fit in.