Beastie's Babbles

[Beastie]

Beastie's Babbles Topic#1

"Stop camping you ######got" "Put that ###### AWP away!" "Your whole clan is full of cocksuckers"

This seems like common speak in the online gaming world. Everyone has been called homosexual in some form at least a hundred times playing various Halflife mods and other games. It's a part of the gaming language that somehow became the norm, long ago even before we picked up our first mp5. It was waiting for you as you went 0/10 in your first time playing. And there was some 15 year old kid there to call you a '###### noob' for it. Is this kid really such a homophobe? Where did he learn this?

The language extends beyond online gaming. I play MagicTheGathering competitively and have for some time. I am ranked nationally for the Vintage format that I play each week, and have been around the block enough to see multiple magic communities. The game-speak is similar, as are the participants.
"Your deck is friggin ######" " I hate that ###### ass card" "Always playing red, you homo!"
I saw this in Wisconsin and I see it in Vegas. It's just an accepted part of the gaming culture that nobody questions. Nobody sits back and says... wow gamers are in some serious fear of homosexuality.

SO I will be the one to ask it here. I see one of two things going on:
Gamers are Blatent Homophobes.
Gamers are Latent Homosexuals.

I will begin by saying that I realize most of those that partake in the language are not doing so in hate. It has become so normal that we (even I have done it from time to time) just say this crap in habit.
Second I will point out that this language does not necessarily indicate that gamers are likely to go out and trash a ###### pride parade with awps and paras (or discs lol). Language does not always dicate behavior.

HOWEVER, though many of us can see that its all just game-speak, will younger players be able to do the same? Gamers are getting younger. I went into a 24 hour cyber cafe type place a few weeks ago and it looked like the cs players were as young as 9 and 10! I observed them for a bit and they were just as likely to scream out ######GOT as the older players. I wanted to pull one aside and ask him whether he knew exactly what that meant. I have a hunch they did not learn this at home from mom and dad. That swarthy kid in the corner screaming it every 40 seconds seems like a good candidate. I wanted to go over to him and ask him if HE has ever had a hetero date before. I decided against it. I didn't want to be that 26 year old guy who got into a fight with a 16 year old cs player.

SO, I am not saying this is going to have longterm impacts on anyone. But I am just wondering how it all came to be. So that is what I ask of all of you.

1. Is gaming (online and off) the most homophobic realn you partake in?
2. Do you think it is a problem?
3. Do you think it can be fixed?

I for one think I will add a new bind to my collection. Look for it on the servers. Grits does a pretty good job of filtering this all out anyway, but there are always some incredibly clever folks that get by the screening. These are the bright minds of tomorrow. I know when I see somone hack through for the soul purpose of calling somone a 'F_Cking Phag' I think to myself... maan I hope he puts that on his resume someday, what a genius!

[g-boy]

Here are my thoughts. First of all, this is not limited to the gaming world by any means. It's just part of foul language, it's how many people talk. Whenever someone talks about homosexual slurs as being like homophobic or whatever, I always think back to other certain profane words... whenever we say the B-word, are we talking about a female dog? It's just a word that has different meanings. Often it is derogatory towards women, other times it's just said jokingly, or it can be a verb. The F word... it is perhaps the most versatile word in the English language, and I have no problem with it. And it rarely refers to copulation. When people use "######" and "######," they really aren't thinking about sexual orientation. The words have come to mean "idiot, loser, a-hole" and "crap, this sucks, damnit" respectively. They have whole new meanings. Not to say it's a good thing, but that's just how it's going. Words evolve.
Now, the other side of the coin is racial slurs. Since it is not acceptable to use racial slurs, no matter how you use them (some use the N-word to call people a-holes, and I'm sure some don't even think about the racist connotation, or when people say "jewed" in place of owned, once again, it's a terrible thing to say but they don't think of it as an ethnic thing), it really shouldn't be acceptable to use slurs towards sexual orientation to mean something else. It's a tough call. I rarely use the words, but I'm a rather profane person when I speak with friends, and I use homosexual slurs to mean other things occasionally, and I don't think twice.
For the most part, I honestly don't mind any form of profanity, unless it is intentionally used to be obnoxious, which is why I support the filter because most people just overuse their cussing. If you cuss over and over, you lose creativity. I'm creative when I cuss, so I don't think of it as bad unless there are people around whom it could offend. Once again, it could offend people in a public server, so it isn't necessary. If a server is without a filter, I'll use common cuss words, such as the F word, shit, and so forth... only because if you're so easily offended by very very common words, you shouldn't be playing a game that involves killing and is rated Mature as it is. It's like going to a rated R movie and getting angry that there is profanity. I'll save it for another debate or topic, but I hate the fact that kids under 12 are playing HL and its mods... any age 12 and after, usually the games won't be damaging, the concrete is pretty well set, but before that, it's really bad. What is with parents?
So, in conclusion, to answer your questions:
1. No, not at all, because for one I don't think it has anything to do with homophobia, and two, those slurs are used A LOT elsewhere. If it is used more in gaming, it's only because people are anonymous and don't care if others get angry. The apathy of youth.
2. It's only a problem because I'd rather if people cuss, use other words, combine them, make suffixes, make some damn good stuff, don't go around calling people variations of the same thing over and over. It's annoying, not offensive to me.
3. No, it cannot be fixed. That is up to the individual servers. If it really bothers you, mute the person, or talk intelligently to make them feel stupid. Sometimes it ticks them off and they leave. I'll say again, those words don't bother me, so if they're used occasionally and used creatively, sobeit.

So for those who have called me the police or whatever on Holdout's for marking filter bypassing, I'm not uptight or anything about cussing, I just respect GRITS and her rules. I also think if you really have to spend the time to think and type differently JUST to cuss and bypass, you're intentionally being obnoxious.

[Wha?]

a b

[g-boy]

Wow... you got from cussing to CSers to TV ads... I say blame it on MTV. Aside from commercials, good shows don't have any of that trendy crap. Then again, I only watch a few shows (24, CSI, That 70's Show, The Dead Zone), lots of nerd-TV (History Channel, Discovery Channel, TLC), lots and lots of sports, and Comedy Central. Anyway, I think it's stuff like MTV, E!, reality shows, and other low-quality stuff that warps the "tween" minds. I hate trendy stuff...

[SoulEvan]

The truth of the matter is, humanity is heading down a path that only becomes more calloused with each passing day. Between television, games, and school, not only kids, but people in general are under fire by a barrage of things that have become meaningless since they've heard it 1912340912458 times.

It's only natural that if you call a man, for the first time, a homo crotch goblin, he'll most likely react impulsively and emotionally angered. Keep calling him such, and eventually he won't care. No longer is there emotion in his response. Tell him to stfu, and he'll instinctively type the same as directed towards the verbal attacker if not something similar. It's doubtful they mean to communicate anything in particular by doing this. That is, excepting the fact humans are impulsive and can't help but react more than less of the time.

I believe I'm a little reasonable and uncaring about verbal abuse, but I'll still respond out of jest or just because I'm a sadist that enjoys making idiots feel like idiots. There are things that push me over the edge though. I lose it when people display explicit, not joking, female abuse just because of their sex. I can't and won't make myself tolerate Satanists and or their affiliations.

You all pretty much know me as a laid back, "just like to have fun and talk a lot" guy, but I say some scary things when I'm angered. For that, I apologize.

Sometimes I just can't figure out what I'm trying to explain. I guess I'm just saying humans are to blame for human faults, like calloused and excessive swearing. It's no one group or person's fault. All I know is, nobody apparently wants the problem solved, because if you try to heal the wound they bite your hand and complain about it.

Rules on a server is fine, but remember that most people you try to make stop cussing will think it's their right. Tell them, you're only trying to preserve their right to self-expression. When you say words so much that they've lost meaning altogether, what are you expressing? Nothing but impulse.

I'd type more, but I forgot a lot of my response. :wacko:

<--------- = retarded ^_^

[evil_admin]

While I can understand the viewpoints of the previous posters, I think you are all missing something regarding the use of such words as ######, ######, (filter addition I'm Stupid for Swearing) etc.

I don't know this for a fact but my guess is that the vast majority of HL players(and probably other online games also) are WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants). Add to that completely heterosexual and mostly males.

You don't hear any words used that would characterize white males in a determinental manner. When players use the above words to characterize another player as 'bad' they are actually empowering those that are truly racist and homophobic and which to spread their beliefs to others. If one hears something enough, one will believe it especially if they have no counter opinions to think about.

It is well known that most people do not vote and those that do, do not study political issues before they vote. In 1992 in Colorado, an amendment passed that allowed legal discrimination against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered individuals, perceived or real. Anyone would have been able to deny employment, housing, service etc. to anyone who they thought might be ######. How could something like this pass? It was pretty easy as most people equate ######=bad because they had never met a ###### person and believed what they thought everyone believed. Try to imagine being in a class of people who could be legally discriminated against for no other reason than who you are. If you can truly empathisize then you would say that using such words has nothing to do with being homophobic or racist.

What may seem on the surface as just typical 'trash' talk, is really destructive to humanity.

[g-boy]

Well... I see your point about the WASPs... I'm one of them except for the protestant part... but then again, language like this is NOT restricted to white people. In fact, I'd venture to say the profanity and racial remarks used by other races is worse. At least where I live. My school is rather diverse, and I don't really have any friends that are all white, mostly mixed or muslim, asian, whatever. One clique, though, is black people. They tend to avoid hanging out with anyone not black. And if you wanna hear some language... you hear cussing every other word, and the "homophobic" cursing is plentiful. Like I said, pretty much worse than any white person I know. The asians use it just as much, as they like to talk like they're black. They're worse because they are like racist to other asians. I have a chinese friend who is only friends with me because I go to a different school and we've been friends since 4th grade... otherwise, it would be like taboo among his friends to hang out with a white person. So they have all kinds of words for us... not to mention non-korean asians call koreans "gooks." I thought that was a term for vietnamese, used by soldiers to dehumanize the enemy... now it's become a slur for koreans among the asian community. The hispanic cliques scream out obscenities and racist things all the time.
For all of these people, I feel it is the same. They are not necessarily prejudiced, they just use profane language. Now, I'm mostly talking about the dregs of society in my shitty school in Chatsworth, the armpit of the country. So I won't say it applies everywhere else, or to those out of high school. But in LA, we're pretty damn tolerant. I'm just saying words like this are not restricted to white people.
I'd like to say one thing to evil and soul... you guys are talking like profanity is the future end of mankind. Destructive to humanity... humanity heading down this path.... Alright, look. I'd say as human beings, we've made some damn fine advancements when we are saying WORDS are destructive. There used to be slavery... there used to be slaughter of american indians... gays were considered mental patients... being racist used to be just how things were. Now if you look at most people, racists are considered despicable people. As well they should be. So some teenage morons trash talk in games. So there are some cliques that think some words are acceptable. Let them. They will either mature, or if they don't, they'll have a hard time the rest of their life. Perhaps the last tolerance needed to achieve is ###### people. I think for the most part people are tolerant... just when they don't think there are any consequences, they say some meaningless words. "Well, there are ###### bashers out there." Indeed, there are murderers, rapists, there are still racists, there are idiots in general that exist. You can't get rid of all of them. Some people just can't be changed, and sobeit, society will ostracize them.

[SoulEvan]

Once again I am misunderstood. I never said words would be our undoing. All I said is people are going to endlessly become more and more calloused, thus resulting in an evolution of dialect because nobody will care about the current slang. We say what sounds cool, we say what's often said. Even if the words mean absolutely nothing, which they often do.

[g-boy]

I don't think they mean nothing. They mean different things. And for the most part, the people who say them without any meaning whatsoever are people who are immature. Words and language change over the times.

[jabbahunt]

Trash talking is fine in games, on the condition that it is okay between two people. The problem arises when one person goes to far and upsets the other or others, not realizing that each person has a different threshold. How many times have any one of us growing up, hurt or, hurt others by what we said, and even in saying sorry didn't realize why it hurt them.(this is how bullies are born) Example: How often has Acid been a topic in forums and never realizing what he did was over the line. Bank on this, he will be okay for awhile and then still do something.(sorry acid, all I could think of at the moment.) For him the line was set by someone else.
When I was in the navy, we would be under water for 90 days and come back with the worse language(cussing like a sailor). I didn't even realize that I had fallen so low. When you tell your, from birth to death, mary loving, thought I would be a priest, never cussed in her life, catholic MOM that it was f...ing good to see her and not realize what you said, you've gone to far.
I believe the language is a product of our enviroment, and as soon as it becomes socially rejected behavior, as in not being cool anymore, it will curb or stop to most extent. There will always be those that will be different based on education or enviroment. If a president of a job place encourages it, shit will roll downhill.

[Beastie]

Ok guys thanks for the good responses. Let me see if I can sum up and continue with a bit more.

1. It looks like we believe that most of the language we see is not necessarily accompanied by hateful intentions toward the group(s) deing negatively described.

2. Second it looks like it is not necessarily a direct threat to the wellbeing of the message sender (shittalker) or the receiver (shittalkee). No one will get into pyysical fights across the internet.

3. This language is not created by online gaming, instead developed somewhere else, possibly from culture's pull to be 'cool'. Perhaps television has played a role.

4. Harmful or Harmless (yet to be truly deturmined), it IS passive-aggressive ######/race bashing, and by letting it become the norm we EACH do in fact contribute.

5. It is not something that we necessarily need to stop, nor could we do so if we wanted to. Filters and such are few in numbers and seldom enforced.

Does this sound about right? Is that what you read above?

Ok great. If not, I misread. Going into Devil's Advocate mode, lets further explore.

WHAT IF... while this behavior brings no direct fight right NOW on the computer, the positive feedback a player receives from his clan mates reinforces this language to be accepted. Maybe the player takes this into other aspects of life where he misuses it in the wrong crowd. Is there EVER a 'right crowd' to be running around firing off ######GOT and I'm Stupid for Swearing at will? Maybe a clan rally?

WHAT IF... a group of friends begin using these words together in all settings. They are at school, at the mall, on the street etc. If another group happens to be walking by and takes offense, this may just look like a gang fight, eh?

WHAT IF... I am blowing this completely out of proportion for the sake of a good discussion, and most kids will eventually grow out of the phase, perhaps after a few bad seeds are punished or asses are kicked for using such words in the wrong context?

These are all possibilities.

I do know that a guy was shot at a local cyber cafe a few weeks ago. I don't know whether race was a factor, or whether shittalking sparked the fuse. I do know they were playing cs prior to the incident, and 2 close friends stood less that 8 feet from the victim. Vegas is quite diverse, and prety cs crazy. These 24 hour places keep pretty busy around the clock. Kids... hell anyone under 21 does not have a ton to do in this '21 and over city'.
People find a special connection to the gaming world, and in cs especially where many kids have their first dealing in clans. People put more faith and emotion in their clans in the mid-teen years than some of us older players want to see. A clan may be a teen's only real sense of acceptance and belonging. Language is one of the few contagious traits we can take from others online. Trends travel fast, and creep into other aspects of everyday life.

Heh, I think I just had a Springer final thought... anyway lets not make it final in any way. Keep it coming folks!

Beastie

[g-boy]

Not as if I know anything about the incident you're referring to... but that happens around here in the San Fernando Valley quite a bit... less than a year ago, a dude was killed at a cybercafe about 2 blocks from me, right near my friend's restaurant. There was also a guy who was followed home from a cybercafe and killed. In each case, it was an asian gang that was targeting other asians, usually of another descent, like a chinese gang going for korean nerd-types. They just pick the gamers and commit the usual gang violence. I'd very much doubt that the people who hang out in the pc bangs start trash talking and end up getting shot... anyone who brings a gun is looking to start something anyhow. Like I said, I'm just relating to incidents around here. Besides, many incidents, whether game related or not, start out with language. Words can be powerful... which is why I rarely use malicious language, about 90% of the time it's in jest, another 9% I'm angry and just venting to friends, and maybe a little measly 1% I get truly angry at someone and cuss.

[SoulEvan]

Hahahahahah, I used to get picked on a little in middle school, but ever since I nearly choked a guy in a bus I've never looked at fighting people the same way. He was an ass, and so was his dad who angrily threatened to show pictures of his son's neck to the police. Anyways, nowadays I'm friends with more or less everybody I even kinda know, and those that I don't like I simply don't hang around.

Now, about language. It's all about miscommunication. People assume(remember, assume makes an Ass out of U and Me), and they get confused. Either way they will probably react in impulsive anger. Great ways to work this out are either studying people like I try to do, become a cynical bastard like me, or just be nice. Personally, I don't think the 3rd choice yields results as great as the other two, but I still do it. ^_^

I'm just a weirdo, but I also have a natural ability to subconsciously change how I speak depending on the kind of person my mind detects. I guess you could call it the Jeet Kun Do of socializing. :lol: Be like the water my friend. ^_^

[Beastie]

Beastie's Babbles Topic #2... a bit lighter this time.

There is a bunch of geometry in Ricochet. On that note, when a carpenter, engineer, designer, or your average home owner need to check angles, they will often pull a level. Let's just say he/she is hanging a picture on a wall. This level will tell him/her that the frame hangs evenly on the wall, and that one side is not set higher on the wall than the other.

A level seems like a simple tool. Most of us have seen one, it contains a small tube of liquid and a tiny air bubble inside. If you place it just right, the bubble sits in the middle. If it is offset, the bubble will go to the side that is higher off the ground. Simple? I have just one question this week.

#1 What is a level... level to?

I will have a couple more questions for you as this one evolves.

[Wha?]

a b

[g-boy]

I was gonna basically say gravity... that's essentially it. Almost sounds like a trick question, too easy... I'm guessing you're just waiting for the gravity comments and then you're gonna ask us about gravity? Higgs boson, aka the god particle? The particle being searched for by giant particle accelerators in Illinois and Geneva? Hmm....

[PIX]

When you say "what's a level...level to?", you would have to compare it to a standard reference somewhere. The bubble's gonna go where it wants to go inside
that cylinder; it's the 2 lines which say it's level to eyelevel. Those 2 lines must be set against a calibrated level which was calibrated against another..etc...all the way
to the master standard somewhere. All measurement devices have a master standard somewhere. There is a metric gram in a vacuum cylinder along with a metric meter stick in Europe which holds the International Standards group. I wonder if they have a level somewhere which stands for the standard level? If you want to find out more about standardization, do a search for the ISO9000 organization and all the pain in the ass things they make us do now.

[SoulEvan]

Aww....everyone beat me to this one. I'm not sure if there's some hidden agenda in there somewhere, but okay I'll repeat what's already been said.

A level's more or less calibrated by the Earth's spherical electric field. The Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it's close enough for the sake of surface observation. I guess a standard would be under such conditions to prevent influence from bodies other than the Earth.

Blah...I wish I actually knew stuff rather than drew conclusions without any prior research or thought. Not that this is a particularly difficult question. It's just a little more black and white than the last, and it's easier to BS "grey area" questions. :mellow:

[g-boy]

Electric field?

[SoulEvan]

Sorry I don't know why I typed that, I'm thinking something but I don't think it's right. I just happened to pay attention when the teacher said those words. I meant gravity field =P . But if I am right, either one doesn't matter. Okay I'm just out of it, nm...

[Beastie]

Hi Guys,

Ok I am looking over the replies and I just want to point out something first: I don't know the answer! So this isn't any kind of trick question. Honestly a local radio station asked this question because it came up in the studio. Since it's an Extreme Rock station and not a talk station, they couldn't elaborate too much. I just liked the topic.

Anyway, this is great! Electric fields, Vacuum Tubes, Gravitational Axis, etc.

The reason I like this whole thing is because each answer sounds like a complicated explanation to a simple concept. And it HAS to be that way because a level is strange tool.

Putting on the advocate's hat (given to me personally by the devil himself), I want to point towards something else completely. Remove gravity, fields, and calibration altogether. It looks to me like a level is simply measuring relative elevation.
It looks to me that the bubble is looking for a point in the tube where there is a higher elevation than any other.
I could simulate this by creating a new level of new material. How about a giant toilet paper tube (hey, I got a giant ass!) and a helium baloon? Doesn't a helium baloon seek the highest altitude? Inside this giant tube the baloon will always go to this point, and will act the same as your tiny bubble in your level. This would seem to demonstrate that instead of gravity (a pull downward), the baloon is operating on a pull Upward. Does this make sense? We do agree that if you have each end of a level at separate elevations, the bubble will ALWAYS go to the higher point, right?

The problem is in what pix pointed out. We still need to have a master standard for our comparison. What is this going to be, sea level? I don't think so. Sea level is a man made standard for elevation. What would be a true starting point?

Question #2 Could you hang a picture using a level on the international space station? Further, could you do so in an anti-gravity tank here on Earth?

Please continue to tackle the first question to this topic. I just think the second will help look at gravity, the strongest suspect so far.

Beastie

[Wha?]

a b

[SoulEvan]

The liquid has to be pulled toward the center of the gravity sphere else it's just floating around aimlessly, right? I can't think right now. :P

IT = the bubble

[g-boy]

Wha? always gets to it before I can... I was going to respond similarly, that there is no need for a standard. It's just physics. And the comparison to a helium balloon in a large toilet paper tube is a good one the the layman, if you assume there is no friction.
Think of it this way... the liquid is what is being affected by the gravity. If the tube is slightly tipped, the liquid will flow towards the lowest point, just as liquid flows down a slope. As it does so, the bubble is pushed upward by buoyancy, essentially because it is less dense and the liquid is basically heavier. Liquid is filling up where the bubble used to be, being pulled down by gravity, and the gas ends up on the highest point. That's assuming there is a big tip, but you get the idea.
Not sure where this idea of standard comes from... it's the standard set by gravity itself, as Wha said, the axis. I think perhaps the confusion came when maybe someone is thinking that perhaps the picture will be level with gravity, but not necessarily the house... but that's just the thing... houses are level too. So if you have a picture that is level with gravity, it will be even with the floor and ceiling, unless you have a terrible house that has a slope in it.
Put a ball on something that isn't level... it will roll down as gravity pulls it. Same idea. You can feel it when you're on a hill. A level is just simply a more accurate representation of this, when our body can't sense it (either too minute or you aren't standing on it... you're not standing on the picture frame), or when friction prevents it from being noticeable. If the picture frame (an even, rectangular picture frame, not misshapen) was hanging from something and there was no friction, it would settle itself to be perpendicular to the pull of gravity, or parallel if you're referring to the left and right sides of the frame.

[g-boy]

And one note on helium, undissolved gases in water... they aren't defying gravity or anything. The medium that it is in is more dense, such as helium in air. It's easier to understand if you wanna put it in terms of weight. Air is heavier than helium... water is heavier than air. The air will fill up the lowest points on the planet, it is sinking to the surface of the planet (whether land or water). Then helium, hydrogen, the light gases are being pushed away from the surface, air is sinking under the helium and the helium molecules have no where to go but upwards. It will rise until it reaches an area of relatively equal density. Same thing is happening to the gas in the liquid in the tube of a level. Water is heavier than air... therefore as much as there is, it will fill the actual deepest parts.
Air gets less dense the further away from the planet it is, so less air higher in the atmosphere. At sea level, the pressure of air is at the maximum for that distance from the mass of the planet (that's why the speed of sound varies at different altitudes... the more dense the molecules are, the faster sound moves... also why temperature and moisture are factors). Argh... there's like several things I wanna say to make it all perfectly clear, but it's getting a bit hard to put into words. It's getting a bit off topic anyway, I just wanted to clarify a few things to avoid misconceptions.

[SoulEvan]

Now here's a question. What if the the tool was precisely leveled(the bubble is in the exact middle), but the sides of the tube were stretched up and down so that it kind of forms an H. It's still filled with the one bubble, and the sides don't spread out at that steep of an angle. Where would the bubble go? :blink: (btw, I think I know, but I'm asking anyways ;) )

For more help on the shape of the tube, think of something along the lines of bowtie pasta that's straight in the middle for the bubble's length.

[Wha?]

a b

[SoulEvan]

^_^Yes, quite obvious. I was asking in order to stress the fact that material altitude has nothing to do with the bubble being where it is.

[Beastie]

Well damn all of you smart people!

I could see Wha was going to answer all of my questions after his first post. He bypassed the potential labrynth of misconceptions and went straight toward some truth. He even brought up this gravitational axis!
I tried to stray you all into other directions (easy to do on this one), and he brought us all back.

I believe the standard I was looking for does in fact exist, however it looks like an oxymoron. By this I mean it is relative. How can a standard be relative? A gravitational axis (thanks, Wha) will be true only for an object in its exact placement on the surface of a sphere. As I sit typing my 'x axis' runs vertically through my body down to the center of gravity's pull, and up infinitly (or at least until another mass's gravity takes over) into space. The 'y axis' ((aka the standard)) can be any line perpendicular to the 'x axis' on it's way up or down, yes... regardless of elevation.. Again this is relative because my 'x axis' is different from yours sitting at your computer now. In fact ours will meet at gravity's center and thus they can never be parallel. We do not share a gravitational axis, but we do of course share a source.

You are all too smart for 'explanation' type topics, I think next Tuesday I will have to go for another perspective based dilema. If anyone has any good ideas for a topic, please pmail it to me here on the site. I am always looking for good conversation and these topics are meant to instigate it. So far I am really happy with the results: good participation and respect for other's remarks. Keep it up everyone!


Beastie

ps. Gravitational Comic Relief:
yo mama's fat... not JUST fat, but soooo fat... she may just be the gravitational center to the universe... that is I am in theory closer to her right now than I am to this computer monitor as I stare at it... and she is hundreds of miles away! Talk about big bang, I am friggin orbitting your obese mass of a mother as I type!
Your mother swallows up BLACK HOLES! ..... she... ok I am done If anyone knows John Ellis, say hello for me.. most of that is his B)

[Beastie]

Beastie's Babbles Topic #3!!!
Wow, I have been postign with you all for 2 weeks already. Time flies.

Today over 50% of graduating high school students go on to college in some form or another. Continued schooling is a right in the US. Government in fact often campaigns for election on a 'I will send all of your kids to college' based platform. Today you are looked down on if you do not go through at LEAST a 2 year program. This is great, right? We have a whole country full of educated people, right?

I went through a 4 year program, though it took me 4 and a half years. I am in my 4th 'real job' since graduating and I make $29k/year. Only 1 of the 4 jobs I have had since school even took into consideration that I went to school as a factor in my hire. I breezed through my time at the university and only placed extra effort into my in-major classes. Most of the others were on heavy grade curves anyway, in EVERYBODY's favor. Some classes offered extra credit for good attendance. I even had some take home tests. Was my dumbied down college experience responsible for my mediocre job experience therafter?

1. Argue for or against this point: College meant a whole lot more when only 10% of students went.
2. Argue for or against this point: College is only a minor factor in making more money and/or getting a 'good' job.
3. Will you pressure your kids into attending college?