I hate to be the straw that stirs the drink, but..

[sage_4]

I realize that everyone here has very different political views, and I'm not sure how wise it is to bring up these things, but lets face it, you cant ignore that America is in some sort of crisis, and in my opinion, going down the tubes. I was looking through the NY times today (July 3rd) and saw the ad that is at the bottom of this post. I checked out the site, http://www.unbrandamerica.org , and yah, its a bit extreme, but you have to admit, lots of it is true. So check it out, whether you love it or hate it. Curse me or praise me for bringing this up, lets get some feedback.

[g-boy]

We live in a capitalist country... every generation believes we are in a crisis... the country has been through worse. What's funny, in my opinion, is that people who make websites like that believe they are the only ones who see things for what they really are, that is that they have no bias and they are right. However, they are just as biased in their opinions as say a white male republican voter. Bush trying to take over the world... please. For the most part, they are people who are... well... I don't think bored is exactly the right word, but something along those lines. They feel the need to have a revolution, they aren't satisfied with some things, and everyone is evil, especially those in power. It will never matter who is in power, it won't matter what will happen, there will always be the counter-culture. I am too lazy and frankly more concerned with my own stuff right now to be so actively anti-something. I'm an independent who leans republican... just to clarify that. I think Bush has done a pretty damn good job considering... I think Gore would have done a terrible job under the circumstances. On the other hand, I think the NRA is a bunch of nutcases and the right-to-lifers are retards... so I switch around. But to get this rebellious spirit is a waste of energy, it's unnecessary. You don't like how shit is going down? Become a politician and get involved. Maybe get into law enforcement and bust these ######s. Become a journalist. Get in the system, vote, that's why we have votes.

[sage_4]

first off, thanks for indepth response. 2nd off, you have to admit it, that last election, with the florida thing, that was f'd up. I'm not saying I like gore or anything (in fact, I dislike him, and I hate Lieberman, who was going to ban all teenagers and video games if he were to come into power) but from what I've heard, in the counted ballots, he won the popular vote. the sad thing is that we can never know.

another thing: i really know exactly what u mean by "they are bored." I live in colorado springs, an ultra conservative place, mainly due to the large military presence, and the fact that we are the HQ for Focus on the family. now i consider my self more of a liberal moderate, I lean more to the left than the right, but I'm no democrat, but sometimes i feel choked here. Of course, on the other hand, there is a very healthy "liberal underground" here. Sometimes it is cool, but most of the time, people are so over ambitious to just say "F*** the system!!" in any way that they can, that it comes off as obnoxious, and nothing ends up happening. I do think we're on the brink of the circle completing itself (something between the depression and the vietnam backlash), but people need to be a bit more objective about things.

[_Acid_Head_]

I think we need another depression.

[kermit]

i agree w/ the pledge itself. mass consumerism is a problem in america. are you aware of how much advertising they throw in our face on a daily basis?...it's truly sickening. if they could find a way to tatoo 'pepsi' on your dick w/o your knowledge, they would do it. i think it's truly more serious than most people realize...we are, perhaps literally, becoming enslaved...and that's NOT the america i want.

i disagree w/ the attitude: "well, that's capitalism for ya". perverted is what it is. we can have a succesful free-market society w/o the constant manipulation and shady doings.

i think, as americans, we tend to define ourselves by what we own (even the brand-name of what we own)...and i think it's unhealthy. it seems like every one around me is driving some huge suv (i live in utah, so i feel your pain sage...:D). do they need a suv? nope. but their neighbors have one so they want an even bigger one. this girl was talking to me after class, one time, about how bad bush is for not signing the kyoto treaty and how awful it was that he wanted to drill for oil in the arctic wildlife reserve...then i saw her climb in the biggest f'n gas guzzlin' suv i had ever seen. i guess it's okay to put an eyesore of an oil-rig and pollute the natural landscape of someone else's country as long as we look good in our new rides ;). hmm...

we've heard it before...we don't always (if ever) practice it...but it's important that we conserve and recycle. we need to help protect our environment...especially one as beautiful and diverse as america's. we can do more.

anyways sage: i praise you for bringing it up...it's important. i curse you for bringing it up right now though. let's have some fun friday...shoot some fireworks and drink some beer. i'll take my country back saturday...^_^

btw, it may be better to place this thread under 'debates'...i think this is the kind of thing it's for.

[PIX]

God bless consumerism. It's what let's your parents buy you kids all that expensive equipment that you take for granted.
How can you bash capitalism and consumerism? It's the same thinking that tells us that we need to reuse toilet paper because
some barn owl might lose it's nest if we don't. I'm proud to be part of corporate America and proud to be a Conservative.
The country seems to be waking up after 10 years of Liberal liez and realizing that the truth IS good and that it feels good
to feel safe in your own country.
My Affiliation

[g-boy]

I love the irony that many liberals criticize the middle east actions we are taking because we are doing it for oil, and then they say it's bad to drill in Alaska or whatever. Ok... well, first of all, we have plenty of oil for now, that we don't need to go into the middle east for it. Second, if we needed it from either Alaska or the middle east, what is the problem here? I am all for recycling, the environment, and alternative fuels. We will run out of fossil fuels in our lifetime, no doubt. I love science and technology, and I think we really need to get this stuff out there. But guess what? Right now, oil is what makes the world go 'round. There is NOTHING you can do about that. When the technology is tested and massively available, we will slowly make the conversion, and we'll get through it. But you cannot just say "don't drill for oil" in the meantime, because how are you going to get around? How are you going to take that vacation to Tahiti?
And don't worry about those SUVs. It costs the same money to run those vehicles as any other, meaning they pay the same amount for every gallon they use. So whether SUVs were around or not, gas would still get consumed at the amount someone could afford. Maybe it's just more quickly now. New laws that are slowly going to be implemented will make it essentially impossible to own an SUV anyway. Don't think our government isn't aware of the oil problems... they are. They'd rather not go around saying "OMG, we're running out of oil, we have to find alternatives or we're all going to die!"
Anyway, I'm sorry you don't like the "that's capitalism for ya" thing, but it's the truth. No one said it's good for these companies to do illegal activities. But if you're a smart person, you ignore the advertisements for the most part, they are aimed towards other people. I don't like tobacco companies and such, but you can't say America is going down the tube just because of what big companies do. Inherently with capitalism, stuff like this will end up happening. It's easy to say we can have a free-market system without all of this, but it's not gonna happen. Sure, there is more you can do. Read my last post, get a good job that you can work it from within the system. Don't get a rebellious attitude toward the government, that accomplishes nothing. You have to support what you want and work towards it, work positively, don't work against what you don't want, don't work negatively. To me, it's like when either the Lakers or the Kings go to another city, they'll have banners and chants that say "Beat LA!" and it annoys me. That's because of a team visits LA, we say "Go Lakers!" or "Go Kings Go!" we don't say "Beat Portland" or "Beat Dallas!" We want our team to win, not the other team to lose. So I think it's annoying when people go around trying to bring down everything, when really what they need to do is support a non-combative cause.

[RuNnInG_wIth_ScISsOrS]

And don't worry about those SUVs. It costs the same money to run those vehicles as any other, meaning they pay the same amount for every gallon they use.

Unfortunately, they use those gallons much more quickly. Hence, more gas station visits to keep that locomotive running, costing more money. Thus, they don't cost the same amount of money to run as other vehicles.

[sage_4]

my volvo may look like a hog, but it gets 28 mpg highway;). also, remember when we ran out of fuel in the 70's? i'm always skeptical about how available oil really is, considering how tied up it is in the government. Despite how much or little we may have right now, the oil companies could agree to declare an oil crisis right now if they wanted to, jacking the prices up. My dad worked at a gas station during the "shortage". they had a 6 pump station down to one pump and high prices because there wasnt enough gas. but my dad said the store manager found himself in such excess of it that he said that my dad was aloud to fill up as much as he wanted for him and his friends.

all im saying is that it is completely possible for there to be a 300 year oil supply already (though obviously, unlikely), and still the companies + media could keep us hyped about it.

[evil_admin]

There is never room for complacency:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government....

[Melba Toast]

What a bunch of hypocrits those guys are. They want us to not agree with our president? Because he's in power and he is controlling us? If we agree with them, then they're in power. Yet, what they're telling us is that no one should be in power (absolute freedom). Screw those idiots. Another thing. Let's get something straight. Big corporations were once small businesses. People just like us trying to make a living by providing i.e. services, goods. Big corporations are necessary because they employ thousands of people, so those people can buy things from others who in turn at somepoint might buy some thing from that same big corporation. Its the trickle down theory that you guys have probably heard about.
The sad part is they're like the Taliban or suicide bombers, in that they don't know any better. The people who live in these dictatorship run countries know that they should be living a better life but they can't because they're government doesn't allow it. GET OVER THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ, the country is the size of Texas, they had around 30 days to destroy/hide it all. Screw the world government and the UN, they all have their own agendas and their number one priority is themselves.

[AnTiX]

i like to say.. look on the bright side of things... at least we dont live in america... when i see most of our country's population laying on a cott, starving and dying.. hen i say we are in a crisis.... what doesnt really have to do with me.. i try not to worrie about. cause most likley you cant do anything about it, so why trouble yourself.

[jabbahunt]

Every thing someone does means something. Even if you do nothing it means whoever is has a little more control over you. So if someone is doing something you don't like, and you don't do anything, don't ***I'm Stupid for Swearing*** about it. There are only 2 positions in life, foward and backwards.
Have you ever noticed how hard older people have to work at even doing the simplist things. They have to work/concentrate 5 times as hard to do half of what a younger person takes for granted. But if they stop trying, they also lose even that 5 times as quick. Even if you don't realize now that you make a difference, think about what a difference what you do will make to someone later on. ie. put a dollar away today and yes you only have a dollar saved, keep saving a dollar a day and then in a yr you have 365 dollars. Now, all you math majors compound this daily, adding the dollar plus say a conservative 5% interest and let me know what you have in 30 yrs. Keep doing this thru school and in good times add to it when you can.

[Wha?]

First and foremost, I'll try to clarify my understanding of why you (the masses) don't mean a damn thing in a system that should be based on you.
Running a campaign costs a lot of money, especially in the days predating any form of transmitted message. All those "American Hero" type presidents who rode around in external combustion locomotives lied through their teeth to every group of people they gave a speech to. Just to get the votes, and have the power. The lies weren't even the same, they were altered to best fit the views of the locals. Obviously now that can't happen with all the nation wide mass media coverage, but the lies remain in a diluted form. Campaign promises are no different from normal promises in that they are just words: nothing more that sounds strung together in a specific order in accordance with the syntax of the language. Should the politician decide to uphold the meaning, so be it. Should they decide not to, no repremand is available except to not be re-elected. Which brings us back to dough.

Massive expense requires even greater income, and who here can drop 170 million USD to save their first born, let alone to promote themselves for a job? Naturally, people of similar beliefs would gather, and those are called political parties. Higher wealth means more sets of eyes and ears receive your sales pitch. Being a member of an aristocratic family, having supporters or 'back-scratch reciprocaters' in large conglomerates, etc. adds a lot of zeros to the campaign budget just left of the decimal point. Given that high level party memebers of high budget parties are going to come from some fountain of wealth, the tight tholian web of corporate support is woven. Obviously each member of a party has some end they wish to see realized, and being human, are most likely self-serving to a certain degree. As each of the companies has their own interests which are fufilled by forming a covalent bond with the approprite political receptical (selective back-scratch reciprocating). When a president gets elected, they have access to a lot of strings which aggrivate the powers that sell. Once properly pulled, it's just a matter of pointing to the spot that itches.

The aforementioned condition of not meaning anything to the system is a serious side effect that stems from the covalent bond forming before the politician is in office, coupled with The (mass) Media's inability to report on serious issues (instead focusing on the stories that keep the audience rivetted to their seats during frequent commercial "breaks"). Instead of hearing something about Bush making welfare only available to those who are married, you hear "Black male wanted in connection to armed robbery" or "Bioterror attack 90% probably within 6 months". This makes it a teensy bit difficult in deciding whether that bloke in the oval office deserves another four years. Whether it's because of a choke chain around their necks, or just a result of kiss-assing, the truth never surfaces in one piece. Unfortunately every statement under that The Ring-esque black splotch is true, though not all of them literally.


Secondly, as of late I've noticed people (including myself) generalizing excessively. When I pluralize a nationality to use it as a noun, I'm making a reference to the every single person whom the parameter (of, or pertaining to the specific region) fits. By following it with a statment of observed (or informed/rumored) behaviour/whatever, I create a stereotype. Take France for example. The only universal statement I can make without discriminating anyone, is that all people living legally in France are French. To say something akin to them being cowards for losing* to an invading army, I am being rascist. When done in jest it is slightly more acceptable, but how long did it take for jokes to turn into vadalism and honest hatred. At one time, to rid yourself of your enemies, you pointed at them in public, and yelled "WITCH!!!". Later is was racial nicknames for Germans and later the Japanese. Soon after is was "COMMUNIST!!!" which was shortened to "COMMIE!!!". Now it's done by pointing and proclaiming somebody of being a terrorist. Or at the very least saying they help terrorists. To help illustrate the point, by a show of hands: Who here wants Bush re-elected for his efforts in combatting terror(ism). After that count is done, who wants him re-elected for other reasons (ie. excluding all things that have to do with TheWarAgainstTerror[ism] or recent hostile military actions). If somebody were to travel around and poll the loudest and most aggresively patriotic Americans, they probably wouldn't even know this president did anything other than "valiently strike back at the heart of the evil which defaced their country, and bravely defend their nations borders from..."etc. etc.

Democracy only functions if the populace is well informed, and a populace being fed by only one side of a partial truth is a populace in the pocket of the dictator they call hero.

::PostScript::
*Surrender or complete death/imprisonment is how you lose a war, not by the invaders "capping" all the flags. You either are completely destroyed or you hand over the keys to the invader and hope they spare your peoples lives. You basically swallow your pride and make a choice that you hope is best for your people. None of this "giving up" bullshit.

[g-boy]

One, making a generalism about French people isn't racism, because French people aren't a race. But I'll let that slide, I know what you mean.

I actually lost a lot of what you were saying and what you were getting at, so I'm just gonna talk about the slurs that people have created. Many slurs are made during wars, like "kraut" and "gook" and "jap" and so forth. Not to defend their usage, because I hate slurs, but their creation is not one of general racism and hatred. The main function is actually a useful one in terms of war. If you send a soldier to go out and kill a man with a name, it is much harder to function efficiently. However, if you tell him to kill that kraut, he is just seeing it as a mission. It is the dehumanizing nature of words. Once again, I am not condoning it, because those words do leak into the general populace and stereotypes, racism, and so forth will result. I'm just explaining that it's how many of them come about, and do actually have an original purpose, and Americans aren't the only ones to do it (a point which I think gets lost a lot of the time). It's just psychology. I like Bush, I plan on voting for him, and even if I didn't, I'd probably do a clothespin vote for him just because I don't see very many good Democrat candidates.

By the way, we do not live in a democracy.

[GRITS]

Bigotry
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

prejudice
:preconceived judgment or opinion : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics


racism
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race ( a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics)

I am not real sure there is a distinct line of what a 'race' is anymore at least by definition I know there is by general consenses

btw 'yankee' was a slur on americans during a couple wars

[g-boy]

I was sort of joking... I meant that French isn't a race... it's a nationality. I was about to say that French people are white, and therefore race isn't necessarily valid, but actually there are black French people as well, and I'm sure some Asian. Technically there are only three races... if I spell or write them wrong, forgive me, but I believe it's caucasian (white), negroid (black, African descent), and mongoloid (oriental... chinese, japanese, as well as Native Americans). So technically, a white American being racist towards middle eastern people would not make much sense... they're both from the same race. It's just bigotry or whatever you want to call it.

Like I said, I was sort of joking, being a pain in the ass about semantics.

[FreeFall]

Political thread so... here's a quote that i just read about recently,



"It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency."
-George W. Bush, June 14,2001, speaking to Swedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson, unaware that a live television camera was still rolling.

[GRITS]

OMG this has to be the oldest post ever revitalized....couldnt you just start your own FF?
it's that little button that says "new topic":P

[[CAKE]anonymity]

is it me, or does bush seem to be unaware of a lot of stuff.

[FreeFall]

OMG this has to be the oldest post ever revitalized....couldnt you just start your own FF?
it's that little button that says "new topic":P

new whatnow?? I don't believe in starting new topics, it's against my religion. Besides, Every old post deserves another chance at success.

[Guest]

And then I respond to them and they get closed before they can deviate any further:)