It's a fool's game

[Wha?]

What I was getting at by saying humans don't have the most genetic material is that it has nothing to do with how 'advanced' the species is. The other animals with higher counts aren't thought of as higher beings, so the theory is bunk. It's like saying people with polydactyly have a better fashion sense. There is no serious relation between number of genes on separate chromosomes and neural abilities. If the new autosomal pair cause higher consciousness, then yes, it will be a mental advancement. But if those reams of codons occur in one already existing.. that's the same advancement without changing diploid count. In fact, with the amount of garbage already present, it's far more likely to have it randomly occur on a currently existing one than have another form with that information on it already.

quantity != quality

[PIX]

Science is observation and documentation, nothing more

If this is true then why is the 'science' of evolution being taught to our children in public schools under the guise of a proven theory? There is NO proof in this theory yet 'science' is the religion of validity that allows THIS myth to be taught under the law without completing the steps of the 'scientific method' ? It is because secular society would rather grasp and hold on to unproven junk science than believe in a grand creator.

but because they force them onto others violently, or wrong others for their differing beliefs

Yes...there are SOOO many Christians forcing their beliefs upon the unbelievers today. Their violence is unimaginable. The 'hurt' that they have caused the annual 1,800,000 aborted babies (Centers for Disease Control Stat) have really put this country in a fearful situation. The thousands of car-bombs they regularly set off in crowded streets is staggering. The numbers of these 'violent' Christians being arrested and murdered in China, Egypt, Iran, Central Africa is a good sign of the world getting these fanatics under control.

Don't let the actions of the mid milleneum Church (Roman Catholic Church), which killed millions of people in the name of false prophets (popes) or televangelists who sleep around and steal grandma's pension. They are false prophets described in the New Testament and God will deal with them with his justice. The true Christian from scripture is meek, humble, loving and giving, but this comes with salvation and a following of the laws from God. We are to love our neighbor. That doesn't mean we have to like what he/she does. Love the sinner...that's what Jesus was all about. If Christians will do what they were instructed to do by Christ..then everything else is in His hands. We are suppose to 'spread the truth' and 'feed His sheep'. No one is to force this upon anyone...just tell the truth. You can take it or leave it. I've done what I'm suppose to; now it's in His hands. Jesus is my Lord. Put 18 grams of that in a reflux tube and bring it to 250 C. Fractional distill the solution and filter out the precipitate. You get 18 grams of the most unselfish person who ever existed. WOW...science CAN be fun. I hate that I left my research job 3 years ago.

[FreeFall]

Religion is an opiate for the masses.

I'm done.

[PIX]

Ah..alas....now we have the logic of Karl Marx.:P

[Guest]

well I didnt evolve to nothing God made me thats thats how i put it down.:)I dont wanna be nothin to a munkey or even eat banana's:)heehhe. oh well Who knows why but it cant be proven its all on faith. There are missin links to both of these theory's until their is proof I just going to keep believin on what i was raised to believe. amen.:)

[PIX]

The idea that God created the world and life is often thought to have been disproved by evolutionary theory. Is there any scientific evidence for creation?

The truth is that the scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports creation. Let me attempt to point out just some of this evidence here. First, the scientific community is now almost unanimous in affirming that the universe had a beginning. This is usually referred to in scientific terms as “The Big Bang Theory.” Of course, this implies that someone or something brought the universe into existence.

Secondly, the universe bears all the marks of having been “finely tuned” to make life possible. For example, the elementary forces of gravity, electromagnetism, and the atom are precisely what they need to be. The earth’s size, distance from the sun, rotational period, composition, and many other factors are all just right. The chances of there being even one planet where all of these factors converge by accident are very slim indeed.

Thirdly, the evidence is mounting that life on earth simply could not and did not come into existence through natural processes in a primordial “soup.” For example, the experiments to prove that it could have happened are suspect because little progress has been made possible due to the ingenious designs on the part of experimenters.

Fourthly, the genetic code of all biological life on earth contains evidence of intelligent design. This is because the genetic code contains information comparable to the information in complex computer programs as well as information in books.

Fifthly, the fossil record continues to be an embarrassment to the Darwinian theory of evolution. The many transitional forms which Darwin predicted would be found simply have not surfaced. This fact has forced evolutionists to modify Darwin’s Theory, often in absurd ways. In short, it is the theory of naturalistic evolution which is in serious trouble scientifically today, while the Biblical teaching of creation never looked better.

[g-boy]

Guess you didn't read what I wrote before PIX. The definition of a theory implies that there is NO PROOF, they are THEORIES that through observation and documentation (as Wha pointed out) seem to be the best explanations. And science works to DISPROVE facts, not to prove that something happens. And the fact is, nothing has disproven evolution, and to those who study it it seems to be the best explanation for how things work in that sense. You are a bad scientist if you say evolution is absolutely true, no way will it ever be disproven, and religion is straight up wrong. It's taught in schools because people have the right to learn science. Science evolves too, and as it does, we'll teach the newest and best theories. Kinda like how people are taught that the Earth isn't the center of the universe. If we hold back science because religion says otherwise, things will progress more slowly. If we held back the ideas of the past centuries and decades, you might not have the computer and internet you are debating this very issue on.

[PIX]

So if you go ahead and fill in the blanks as they do for evolution...then that is alright to teach our kids? They aren't teaching our kids that evolution is a theory...they are teaching them that this is how is was and is. Why are they doing this? Because they KNOW it's not provable and they will NOT say that it could have been God. You just keep being spoon fed that college theory like I was in the Biology department and believe what you want. But when you can explain how people keep theorizing how old the earth is using different methods which don't match up at all and they stop confusing kids that this IS a theory with incomplete evidence...then I'll hold my peace. A theory is an unproved assumption. That is no license to put it in EVERY textbook as law! Evolution is just a belief...and that in itself makes IT a religion. Just as in Christianity...it is based on faith and cannot be proven scientifically. So why does it get preference over Creationism in this wonderful world of secularism?

[FreeFall]

i know i said i was done. . but one more comment won't hurt.


Public schools are meant to appeal to everyone. You learn about everything in this literal world that is believed to be true. You learn about everything within this reality. If you want to learn about religion, go to a church or a temple. They don't teach about god the same reason that they don't teach about the afterlife or supernatural beings and ghosts.

[Wha?]

Schools teach science because it doesn't outright say people are wrong, so it doesn't conflict with anybody else's ideas. Most other ideas don't like it, but that's their problem. See, that there darn ol' constitution says you can't **** with people because of their ideas.. so teaching the christian way as the actual way in a public school is unconstitutional. Just like for the cree way, or the olmec, or the hindu, or the buddhist.. Shouldn't matter, I mean, what's all this redundancy stuff, anyway? The only reason I can conclude anybody would want to waste time and taxes on re-teaching sunday school, is that they don't take their kids to their place of worship.

I can totally agree that scientific answers to existence and other abstract issues not be taught as the right answer. It's totally unscientific.

I know this has been covered way to much, but it doesn't seem to be clicking yet. "Theory" is constantly being misused in those passages. It does not (repeat: DOES NOT) mean inarguable doctrine. Filling in blanks, making inferences, coming up with extrapolations based on data, that's what makes it a theory, and until that theory can be demonstrated as true beyond reasonable doubt (since being of a fallible mind means there will always be a possibilty that such things aren't true), it remains speculation. Theories are subject to change, and as such, they can't be handled like holy scriptures, which don't change--or at least, aren't supposed to.
I.E. pointing out "This fact has forced evolutionists to modify Darwin’s Theory" as a flaw in evolutionism instantly labels you an idiot.
Use of such a point as an argument brings up the tidbit that reality is not boolean. If a theory comes up false, it's human nature to assume the opposite (or perceived opposite) is therefore true. If evolution wasn't the cause of life as we know it, the JudeoChristian god doesn't suddenly get credit.

There are conceivably an infinite number of ways to end up where we are, only one of which happened. Yes, past tense. As in only one sequence of events got us here, and therefore only one theory can be entirely true. It's possible to have some things right, it's possible to be almost right, it's possible to be so far off the mark, light coming from it won't reach you. No way to tell at this point if even one iota of existential truth has even been thought of, let alone written down. One (the number of actual event sequences) divided by infinity (the number of possibilities) is a real small number. No sane gambler would bet on something with that kind of probability. Now, since the current tally of existential theories can be recorded with less than five digits, a complete set of options is not present, hence the odds any given one is totally true grow smaller still. Evolution isn't that easily written off, however, as the process itself is real and undeniable. It's simply not possible to deny the current existence of evolution (and remain credible), as it's so commonplace as to rule nonconformities exceptions rather than the proverbial rule (like stuff falling when it's dropped). That's not an issue up for debate. It's an evolutionary beginning to life that's being refuted.

The whole bible being true is less likely (many million times less likely) than only the part about how life began being true. Less conditions to validate, higher chance of being right; simple enough. Evolution being the start is more likely than the descriptions on the first few pages of genesis, since it can be demonstrated consistently at present, whereas deities are really unreliable in that department. The increased odds of veracity are because something which can be demonstrated has a full hundred percent probability of being possible with current conditions. Past conditions are similar to present ones (similar enough to generate a concept of wordly stasis), and thus things which can happen now were about as likely then.

I should probably revisit the beginning to all that probability stuff, as one crucial aspect didn't quite get enough explaination. Only one event chain being an actuality was brought up, and it's an important concept to understand, in that probability has absolutely no effect on anything. One thing happens, the liklihood of the potential events doesn't make one get dibs on being true. I could eat tea out of the box until I vomit and use the arrangement of the regurgitated leaves to devise a new religion (without any form of divine communication or influence, just so the tea leaves are properly random), and it could be entirely true (not limited to the genesis portion). That it was so blasted improbable compared to the ideas of say, shinto, had no bearing on it's verity.

::PostScript::
I would like to point out that some of those anti-evolution quotes are formidable challengers for the title of the funniest thing I have ever read. Somebody actually thinks that stuff is solid. Oh man.. I made a few magic tricks I'm going to perform in Vegas based on the principles they used. Should be a real hit.

[PIX]

so teaching the christian way as the actual way in a public school is unconstitutional

So should pushing a unproven theory on children such that they walk out of a class thinking, wow...I didn' t know that's how it all happened"

so it doesn't conflict with anybody else's ideas

that is laughable...evolution directly conflicts with ANYONE'S ideas if they believe in ANYTHING other than it.

Freefall...you state your statements like evolution is a reality. REEXAMINE your statements in the context that they are not provable and you see you are in the same boat as Christians. It isn't reality.

If you want to learn about religion, go to a church or a temple

Seems to me that faith is also needed to believe the fairy tail religion of evolution.


Well, I have learned one thing...if you say it's yellow, I say it's green. If you say square, i say oval. We are never going
to agree on anything, that is for sure. But that is one of the great things about debates...there is no shot clock.
It truly saddens me however to see so many agnostics and athiests in this wonderfully complex world who think that man gained everthing he has on his own.

[g-boy]

I can see your prob with an atheist, because hell I know an atheist who goes around telling religious people that they're wrong. Although if they just stay out of your way, who cares?

As for us agnostics, the reason I'm agnostic and not atheist is because I do believe there is SOMEthing and I have an open mind. However, I cannot blindly believe in something because it comes from a book. I have the kind of mind that questions everything, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE and against my nature to have a faith in Christianity. Everything I believe comes from my personal observations, considering them over and over, and refining them in my own mind. I have philosophies, I have morals... that's my personal religion. No shit Christ was a real man that existed, but NOTHING shows me that he is my Lord and Savior or whatever. Why believe in this one religion and not one of the many many that exist on this planet? Because you were taught to have faith in this one thing, and then made your CHOICE that it's the right way to go.

This is partially why I resent the notion of being spoonfed theories in the biology department (I actually have not taken a college biology course yet, that's next year, I've only taken chem, astro, and geology). I don't take anything without considering it in my head all the time. I don't just listen to a professor and agree with everything he/she says about science. If it makes sense to me, and agrees with the many philosophies I have developed in my life, then I start to accept it and debate with it. Evolution makes a hell of a lot more sense than Creationism to me. That doesn't mean I accept it blindly, however. I may determine that something doesn't work for me, I'm sure my beliefs will change over the years. This is just how I perceive things now.

To conclude about the evolution taught in school. OK, I just got out of high school... we were never, EVER, told that evolution was absolutely true. In fact my biology teacher didn't believe in evolution, and told us such, but he taught the concepts so that we'd have a view of every possibility. California and Los Angeles in particular has the shittiest public school system in the US, possibly the world, and yet we are not told that evolution is an infallible doctrine as you seem to think it is taught as. I am not sure what schools this is being done in, but if it is done that way, I agree it is wrong and as wha said, unscientific.

I'm not sure what evolution would be so inconceivable... we are evolving as we speak, particularly in technology... why is it so unlikely that this works on a biological and geological standpoint over billions of years? Hell, we can tell the universe is very very old just by looking through telescopes, we can see the cycles of stars, we can see how stars are made... how is the Earth only 6000 years old? Because the Bible says so... *shrug*

[FreeFall]

Freefall...you state your statements like evolution is a reality. REEXAMINE your statements in the context that they are not provable and you see you are in the same boat as Christians. It isn't reality.

did you catch that line "believed to be true". . .I mean I'm pretty sure it's there, at least I can see it. maybe my eyes are borken and i'm imagining this sentence fragment. And yes i have faith in science. I have faith in science because it doesn't force, ie.

Schools teach science because it doesn't outright say people are wrong

I prefer to believe in something that allows me the freedom to think what I will, rather than something that is trying to force me into it's system.

[SoulEvan]

You have faith in science, and their are several scientific doctrines that you believe in regardless simply because your senses are stimulated by the results they cause. Actually, it would be wrong to call them doctrines because they really don't leave the average person a choice of whether or not to accept it. Gravity is a concept, but of course nearly everyone you meet will tell you it exists, most likely including yourself, because you see what happens when you drop a ball or stone. Wind is a concept, but you believe in it no matter what because you feel how the traveling air particles extract heat from your skin.

Evolution. I may believe in God and the Christ, God's son, but that in no manner means that I'm simply writing off the concept of evolution. Unfortunately for many fame-seekers and creation dodgers, there are no fish/dog/horse/cat/elephant hybrids naturally running around in the wild. Whatever that one game is. Scorpion birds duking it out with rhino fish and what have you. There are, however, animals that have minor changes of characteristic depending on what they're adapting to. Most commonly known in evolution are Darwin's finches. Different bodily aspects depending on their location on the islands. Think evolution is just something a clown dreamed of one night? The same adaptation happens with humans. Differences in skin color, body-hair amount, natural body-size deviation, etc. Corrolations dependent on location and the habits of several generations.

Unfortunately for many science enthusiasts, there are other inexorable concepts which cannot be explained down to the core by science. For example the emotions you are feeling right now as you read these words. The concept of atheism would require a true stoic. A person incapable of feeling or showing any emotion. This is because atheists believe that everything is relative and at the same time meaningless. You serve absolutely no purpose, life is a garbage chute, and you're the decending pile awaiting the complete oblivion that is death. I'd love to hear any argument as to how that could possibly sate any of how human needs because atheists already contradict themselves with their words and actions.

Agnosticism is simply foolish and illogical. If you aren't simply riding the fence of belief in a deity, chafing your crotchety life away, you're probably saying that it's an impossibility for you to follow that God("who does or doesn't exist"). That's not a law that's set in stone. That's a choice and a foolish one that's similar to saying the perfect girl for you is right in front of you, ready to love you till death do you part, and you reject her. How could love possibly be the absolution for this choice? It's so because that's the concept of paternal/maternal feelings, the deity being your creater just as your parents are yours. Unfortunately for some children, their parents are far from the perfection of deities. In any case, think about it if you're really afraid of making a mistake.

*There is no God
->You believe in God -> you die, no real consequences
->You don't believe in God -> you die, no real consequences

*There is a God
->You believe in God -> you die, you experience an eternity of happiness
->You don't believe in God -> you die, you experience an eternity of suffering

If you're looking at another religion, plug in the deity and consequences accordingly.

I haven't been around for a long time, but I read a chunk of that first post and I would be lying if I were to say that I hadn't heard that kind of rubbish before. From myself, even. What a jaded, cynical, and outright dumb belief all of that is. First of all, you're making completely "hormone driven" statements about a non-representative group. Not every, and not most, Christian(s) are the corrupt people you claim that they are. In fact, you're only talking about people who are sinful by nature anyway. Now, I'm not condoning the acts of irresponsible Christians and others. And I DEFINITELY don't agree with many of the things that wrongly-proclaimed followers of God do, but it would be a foolish act to simply write off Chrstianity as a figurative cesspool. The whole point of actual Christianity is to love God and love one another. There are many commandments, but it's all taken care of if those two guidelines are truly followed.

Please don't bash my religion and definitely not my God if you know nothing about them. As for the rest of what I've said, do what you want with it.

All of that said, there's really no need to be an ass in your posts. No need for frustration or anal retorts. Have a nice day.

[SoulEvan]

I love you guys. ^_^

[g-boy]

Just want to point out that it's all about belief. I'm not going to deny my beliefs and opinions of the world and lie that I believe in a Christian or Jewish or any other God to essentially cover the bases and ensure I go to heaven if in fact there is one. He's omnipotent, so probably would realize that I'm lying about my true beliefs and therefore it wouldn't matter.

And by the way, I have as much faith that I will not go to hell for not being baptized or not being a Jew or Christian as those who have faith to the contrary. I firmly believe that if there is a single all powerful god that he would realize my personality and assessments of life are inherent to me, and I was a good person and there'd be no reason to send me to hell. As much as one is afraid of an afterlife of hell, I am unafraid of reaching that eventuality as long as I do what I believe to be right. If I'm a fool for believing in what I TRULY believe, then so is everyone else for believing in whatever it is they believe in, whether organized religion, philosophy (which is sorta like a personal religion), or completely atheistic.

To briefly defend atheists, most atheists aren't like that, SE. Atheist just simply means they don't believe in vastly powerful deities, it doesn't mean they find no purpose to or in life. Although there are some like you describe, and I do find that kind of sad, but to each his own. Also, agnostic simply means we don't have an organized religion... again, it doesn't mean we don't believe in ANYTHING, or just sit around and say "well maybe there is and maybe there isn't, I'm neutral." No, I for one believe stuff from my assessments, but I do have an open mind. So yeah, I believe there is some kind of god(s), just in the way everything is so elegant in life, there's such great balance, but I wouldn't totally write off the possibility of there being no god(s). Somehow I find it harder to explain myself to others than others explain themselves to me. I completely understand someone's beliefs in religions and such, but I am constantly told I just believe in nothing and I'm a fool and I'm gonna go to hell and all of that bullshit. Not sure where the misconception came in that someone MUST have a labelled religion in order to have any beliefs. They MUST have faith in a named god. They MUST get their beliefs from some source, ie the Bible, Koran, etc. Generally I have to flash the yin yang in defense just because it's the closest symbolic representation of what I believe.

OK so I wasn't so brief. Sorry, just got a bit defensive about being called foolish, as I guarantee I'm far from it.

[SoulEvan]

The reason I call agnostics foolish is because they essentially deny whatever supreme being they may think exists to his face. If you have your own personal set of beliefs and faith in another supreme being, or perhaps not even that. Perhaps its a concept you base your beliefs or faith on that's great, but it doesn't make you an agnostic. Agnosticism is based purely off of keeping an open mind(like you said), but it lacks faith. The depth of it really is basically that "maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but we'll never know until it whips us across our collective ass."

So yeah, I believe there is some kind of god(s), just in the way everything is so elegant in life, there's such great balance, but I wouldn't totally write off the possibility of there being no god(s).

That would be a lack of faith in either possibility. Not firm beliefs but indecisions.

In addition, I never said and would never say that you or anyone I know are going to hell, and I'll say it as such because that's what I believe essentially happens. But I would say that you and many people, including myself, are at risk.

According to Christianity, God is the embodiment of love and happiness so I wouldn't doubt that you could view it all as simply a happy spiritual connection. I mean, I can't deny that there are people out their that live in near perfect peace, happiness, and truly compassionate sorrow who believe in things that seem greatly different from what I believe. The thing about Christianity though, is that it makes living a life of unconditional love so much easier to grasp and so much easier to follow if you really trust in it. It's been done on the eastern continent without the Bible or the Cross. I simply try my best to put my trust in the testimonials of those who have experienced the love and grace of the being that's known as God.

As for my extreme about atheism, my point was that if there were no supreme being to keep balance and create concepts and natural laws then it's all essentially nonexistant and meaningless. This world would simply be my creation, you're all figments of my imagination, and I could bend a spoon with my nonexistant mind. Or I could kill/rape/torture and just cause general suffering and chaos because the universe is simply my understanding and it really doesn't exist. I realize that many atheists don't think like this, but that's because they aren't atheists. They simply pick and choose. Morality doesn't really exist because there's no higher authoritative entity that made it so, but I believe and have a set of morals anyways. That's a load of doo doo butta. If atheism were a possibility then we'd all be hooked up to an energy harvesting factory dreaming about a world that doesn't really exist. :P

Sorry for calling you foolish G, but if you really do have your own set of beliefs and have faith in it then call yourself a G-ist or something. :)

[g-boy]

I can't deny something to His face if he's never shown It to me. That's simply my point about being unsure whether there is one god or multiple gods, because there is no evidence for either, and I don't consider the Bible to be evidence because it was written by man, and men are flawed. I hear the faith argument over and over, and once again, I understand it and respect it, but I am just talking about how my mind works, and I cannot blindly have faith in something. I believe in things, and those beliefs change every so often. So, again, I don't expect God to punish me for having no absolute faith him Him if he doesn't give me anything to go on. He knows how my mind works, according to some He created it. Again (I've said again many times, I know), it's just difficult to explain myself. I wouldn't necessarily call it faith, I have faith in my judgment of things, but I won't say I have some firm written convictions that are never changing. They are beliefs, nothing more, and I wish them to be respected. And I wasn't referring to you telling me I was going to hell, SE, I was referring more to some Christian folks that tell me as such if I don't get baptized or believe in Christ or whatever it is I am supposed to do.

My girlfriend is Catholic, and she's far from fundamentalist (doesn't take the Bible literally, supports ###### marriage, abortion, etc.), but has said the same stuff to me, not maliciously or anything, that one needs to be baptized to avoid hell. And if we were to get married, she would make me get baptized... which personally I have very very deep problems with doing, but I WOULD do it just for appeasement. So, maybe it's anti-faith, I have so much faith that I don't believe in Christianity that it would sicken me to lie about it, but not set faith in any particular forum of belief.

And SE, about the G-ist thing, I actually have many times described myself as a MacKenzieist (my name), and my girlfriend also says I'm not truly agnostic, I do have a religion, it's just unlabelled, and I kind of believe that. I guess it all depends on what you define the words as meaning... I consider atheism the lack of believe in a God, which I don't necessarily think entails a lack of meaning in life, as much as many of you would think so. And if you do believe in meaning, it doesn't necessarily mean you need a god for that. And agnostic I consider to mean not belonging to an organized religion or one of its denominations, nothing more. So there is a broad range of those agnostics who have no beliefs, but I'm not one of them. I could go into GREAT detail about my belief in balance of life, how good and happiness are necessary but so it evil and destruction to keep things moving. A utopia would be a dystopia for humankind.

[RushJet1]

* RushJet1 agrees with PIX (edit) ...<--- and ahahah btw I actually thought that would work... I've been using IRC too much lately.

OK, just wanted to say I'm agreeing with PIX here.

I'm a great example of the Christian who is not perfect, you all should know:P

[SoulEvan]

Once again, I love you guys. And you G-Bizzle. :lol: I know I take pokes at some of ya'll every once in a blue moon, but there's no quicker and more interesting way to get to know about the people around you than by drawing their attention with an assertive statement on a controversial issue.


Cheers

[FreeFall]

Pix I don't know why I posted this. I guess I just wasn't thinking straight. I'm sorry I made you as mad/ uncomfortable as you are. whatever you think or believe is cool, so whatever you decide to do with teh Vad community (leave or whatever) I wish you all the best, and though our religious preferences do jnot match I still feel that you are a pretty cool guy and hope that you will stay with us...

[[CAKE]anonymity]

Just because we disagree doesnt mean your not wanted.

[Annatar]

hmmm i know 1 or 2 ppl who agree only with ppl who dont want them.

I havent got into this argument cos my own view confuses myself let alone anyone else. I also know that basically, nobody at either end of an argument is gonna convince the guy at the other end that theyre wrong.

[FreeFall]

I hereby retract all stements made by me, this is not saying that I have converted or anything as such, it's merely a confession of my ignorance and idiocy.

(i realize it is a late post, But I just wanted to say it)

[SoulEvan]

^_^

There's a bit of fool in each and every one of us, FreeFall. Admittance into the club of reality only takes realization. Granted. :D

[PIX]

LOL Freefall. No need to come in this late and down yourself like that!!!
We are all born fools...and still show that inborn foolishness alot. I do
ALOT and put my foot in my mouth TOO much. Don't confuse sharing your
feelings with being a knucklehead. You were mearly expressing your feelings.
Freefall....I love ya brother!;)

And as for admittance to the club of ignorance and idiocy....I never knew it was free....I was
always making fake ID's to get into it and all for nothing!!:lol:

[[CAKE]anonymity]

I thought you had to be "this high to ride"

[SoulEvan]

Nice Anon...nice. LOL