Abortion

[FreeFall]

Twenty-six years after the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision, the public debate on abortion seems to have reached a stalemate. The issue continues to be debated in Congress and state legislatures across the country, but, year to year, there seems to be little change in public opinion. This does not mean, however, that the abortion issue is going to recede in intensity any time soon. There are many reasons for this, but perhaps the most important is simply that "the majority of Americans morally disapprove of the majority of abortions currently performed," as University of Virginia sociologist James Hunter concludes in his path-breaking 1994 book, Before the Shooting Begins: Searching for Democracy in America's Culture Wars. Hunter's analysis is based on the 1991 Gallup poll "Abortion and Moral Beliefs," the most thorough survey of American attitudes toward abortion yet conducted. The Gallup study found that 77 percent of Americans believe that abortion is at least the "taking of human life" (28 percent), if not "murder" itself (49 percent). Other polls confirm these findings. And yet, while many Americans—perhaps 60 percent in the middle—see legalized abortion as an evil, they see it as "necessary."

The Chicago Tribune aptly summarized the situation in a September 1996 editorial: "Most Americans are uncomfortable with all-or-nothing policies on abortion. They generally shy away from proposals to ban it in virtually all circumstances, but neither are they inclined to make it available on demand no matter what the circumstances. They regard it, at best, as a necessary evil."

I just read this little article and decided to start a debate on the matter. I know many do believe that it is wrong and immoral to do something as such. but frankly...i'm pro-choice. what's your take on the matter?

[PIX]

Oh come on Freefall....give us a 'hotter' topic!! :P

I have been on both sides of this debate. Throughout my dark years which some call 'college years',
I was always pro-choice along with pro-everything-else-that-was-against-God. I even had a girlfriend
when I was 19 who got an abortion. My wife has been through the same thing. Now as a Christian I
look at it from a new pair of eyes. We as humanity think we are in control of our lives...that we are our
own gods and control our own destiny. Well, you are partly right, you do control your destiny by making
the YES or NO choice to through faith follow God. God gives life to us. He gives us children as a gift. They
are not ours...they are a gift. They are not the property of the mother nor activist judges. God entrusts
us to care for the children while they are temporarily here on earth. At the moment of conception, that
embryo is a soulfull person. The Bible states in the book of Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

All sins have equal weight except for one..which has unpardonable consequences. Abortion is murder. Everyone speaks of 'RIGHTS'....and 'PROTECTION'....well, what about the protection of a defenseless embryo. The new ultrasound technology out
now allows people to see a 3-dimensional image of the developing baby.

Pictures and video from the new technology show that an unborn baby can stretch, kick and leap around the womb much earlier than had previously been thought.

They show the stretches, yawns, even smiles and frowns,

In this man centered world, it's a 'if it feels good, do it'. "By ALL MEANS, don't do ANYTHING that might cause you emotional grief like have a baby.' 'With all the grief in the world, why would I bring a child into it.'

ALL COP OUTS! People not wanting to live up to responsibility. Cowards! Oh wow...I might have to work more to pay for a child...or I might have to get....gulp.....MARRIED. Grow up and get a pair guys. You should pray everyday your parents didn't
go and let the abortionist puncture your skull and vacuum you out. You just got lucky eh?

Christians believe that all those aborted babies are in heaven right now waiting on their mother's to join them one day. That is if they make it to heaven. I know that I have 2 children waiting there right now and I am so anxious to meet them and tell them
that I am sorry for doing what I did. I will have eternity to make it up.

King David had an affair with a woman named Bathsheba and they had a son. God punished David and took that child from him.
David says that the child won't return to him, but he will go to it one day.

2Samuel 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who knoweth whether Jehovah will not be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

I'm not here to debate politics and agendas. I am here to speak out for the millions of children who aren't making it out of the womb. You think they would have it bad our here?? They are getting slaughtered right in their warm, safe places....another 'slaughter of the innocents'. I have 2 kids now and I can't imagine life without them. Yes it was AND IS NOW tough but when men stand up and be men and take care of their kids...then the women can be the best mothers THEY can be also.

Jesus was very clear how he felt about children. They are the MOST important people he was with. He said we must ALL be like them in our faith to even enter heaven. He also gave very stern words in all 4 gospels:

Matthew 18:6  But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Don't let the activists paint a grim picture of 'all the women who died in backalleys with coathangers' in the no abortion days. Those numbers were rediculously low but they don't talk about that now. Yeah....there are stupid so-called Christian activists also
who use violence to make a point. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS! Jesus says you can see if people are doing his work by their fruit. Evil for evil is NOT fruit of a Christian. I love people who still value abortion as Jesus commands me. I think abortion is murder and of evil men but it is up to the Spirit of the Lord to touch these people's hearts.

The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second greatest is love your brother like yourself. Those brothers for me include pro-choice people but also includes those unborn lives who desparately need us to
give them a chance.

Oh yeah....I had a shocker last night. My wife is pregnant. I spent hours reading the Bible and asking God what to do. I told Him
that I was suppose to be happy but was feeling trounced. I opened the Bible and read Proverbs verse:

Proverbs 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

This morning on the radio station I listen to (KLOVE), they had a commercial on and it quoted that exact verse.
He works in His own way.

I'm thinking of maybe....Adam or Peter for a name.:thumb:

[PIX]

Pro-Abortion Madness
The abortion lobby has abandoned its rationales amid pro-life gains.
By Ted Olsen | posted 08/17/2004 9:30 a.m.


Activists on both sides of the ###### marriage debate "have begun to speak of the issue as 'the new abortion'," The Washington Post reports. But what ever happened to the old abortion? As it turns out, the past few months have seen extraordinary progress for the unborn, with abortion supporters looking more desperate than ever.

The international front is full of good news. China is outlawing sex determination and sex-selective abortion, aiming to fix its gender imbalance by 2010. On the other side of the international political spectrum, the Netherlands has tethered its infamous abortion ship.

Meanwhile, Britain is engaged in a soul-searching moment. First came the release of images from the new 3D/4D ultrasound scans—one shows a 12-week-old child "walking" in its mother's womb. Then came the shocking news of the abortion rate (up 3.2 percent from 2002), "cosmetic" abortions (at least a dozen babies have been aborted for cleft lips and palates, in probable violation of British law), and medical advances. The author of Britain's 1967 Abortion Act, David Steel, said the law wrongly assumes fetuses can't survive outside the womb before 28 weeks. "Since then," he wrote in The Guardian newspaper, "medical science has continued to advance, recording survivals at 22 weeks of pregnancy." In 1990, British pro-life groups pushed to move the law back to 22 weeks, but got 24. Now Steel wants it halved, to 12.

Viability supposedly matters here as well. World magazine recently reported, "Forty states and the District of Columbia have post-viability abortion bans that are currently enforceable." Many of these state laws define viability too late: between 24 and 26 weeks. But in December, when Sen. Joseph Lieberman noted that the laws no longer reflect "extraordinary advances in medical science," he was condemned for eroding "choice."

Abortion advocates are increasingly abandoning science. "For a long time now, medicine has assumed too much importance in the abortion debate," Marina Benjamin wrote in The Scotsman. "If medical advances keep lowering the bar, we'll soon be faced with a situation where socially motivated abortions are legally discriminated against."

But people seem fine with that. A January poll showed that 43 percent of Democrats believe abortion "destroys a human life and is manslaughter." Those numbers will keep growing due to what The Wall Street Journal calls The Roe Effect: Pro-lifers can pass their values on to their children; those who abort their children can't. Another good sign: Anti-abortion demonstrations are getting younger.

Little wonder, then, that Sen. John Kerry touted that he too believes that life (though not necessarily personhood) begins at conception and that abortion is an "incredibly important moral issue."

For Kerry, the basis for keeping abortion legal isn't based in science but in the "separation of church and state." The change of rationale could be great news. It's no Herculean task to explain why banning abortion doesn't establish a government religion.

But abortion advocates aren't rallying to Kerry's view of conception, so they're not arguing church-state separation, either. In summary, they have lost ground on science, emotional appeals, constitutional law … What's left?

Insanity. Meet Amy Richards, whose "When One is Enough" article in The New York Times Magazine told of how she unregretfully aborted two of her triplets because it would mean "shopping only at Costco and buying big jars of mayonnaise." Without the abortions, she exclaimed, "I'd have to give up my life!" That life is one where she's a Planned Parenthood leader, a consultant to Gloria Steinem, and founder of the Third Wave Foundation, which funds abortions. She's also one of the brains behind Planned Parenthood T-shirts that proudly proclaim, "I had an abortion."

Richards's article and those shirts have outraged even Planned Parenthood affiliates, but make no mistake: This is the direction that the movement is headed. Within days of the triplets article, the Times published another article on abortion. This time, Barbara Ehrenreich savaged women who regret their abortions or oppose those "socially motivated abortions" Benjamin was talking about. "Time to take your thumbs out of your mouths, ladies, and speak up for your rights," she said.

Not exactly the textbook method for winning hearts and minds. No wonder the tide is turning.

[brokend]

wow, that's a lot of reading. but here's what i think:

when people decide to have children, and intentionally get pregnate, then i see it as playing God. to intentionally create a life can be the same as intentionally destroying one. depending on how one views children to begin with, either one could be a blessing or a curse. to be honest, i, as a person knowing my own experiences and thoughts in this place, would not be in the market for a kid. i really would rather not.

and i'll take the necessary precautions to ensure that agenda.

[PIX]

There is nothing blasphemous about doing what God intended you to do.

There is nothing wrong with you not having children. They are a big responsibility.

[Gwarsbane]

Ok I'm gonna say this as nice as I can, telling a woman that she can't do something with her body due to your religion is wrong. Its like saying that no one elses views count.

Remember there are many people out there that don't have the same religion as you do or don't have any religion at all.

Now what about raped and/or insest and gets pregnant isn't that a good reason to have an abortion?

What about if the girl/woman will die in childbirth or somewhere along the road to child birth?

If my daughter/girlfriend/wife/mother was rapped I would want her to have an abortion because that is not a child born in love. Will I force her to have an abortion, no its her body and its her choice. I know if I was a woman and was rapped I would want an abortion. No matter what her choice was I would standby her and if I didn't like it.

If my girlfriend/wife was going to die in child birth or on the way to child birth I would want her to have an abortion. Again would I force her to, no again its her choice and no matter what I would standby her choice.


Does all this mean I like abortion? yes and no. In the above cases I believe abortion is ok. What I don't like are some of these girls that go and have abortion after abortion just because they were not smart enough to keep the guys our of their pants or use protection.


What about if me and my girlfriend/wife are having sex and we take all the percautions but she still ends up pregnant. Then we would sit down and talk about it and both of us would decide what to do. In a way my choice doesn't really matter much, as she is the one that will have to carry the baby. If I didn't want a child and she did then I would standby her choice. If it was the other way around then again I would standby her choice.


You want to tell people in your religion what to do with their bodies fine, you can go preach at your church but don't go telling me or others that are not of your religion what we can and cannot do with our own bodies.

[PIX]

What about that child's body?? That child has NO rights does it? That mother has complete rights but that baby has none, right? It is completely 100% that baby's fault that it was conceived....even in the event of rape right? We should go ahead and end it's life because it was in the wrong place and the wrong time? You people's consciousnessess have been spared the responsibility of dealing out the death for a long time, but when people start seeing these new 3D ultrasounds and see that that child has all the emotions and movements that a term baby has, then we will have a face with the life inside that woman. People so wrapped up in your own existance that you willingly sacrifice their unborn children to make your life a little easier. Kind of like the beef industry. You are spared seeing what actually happens and you get the finished product. You go and see what they do to the cattle and you aren't so hungry for that steak right after.

It's been said that you can tell alot about a country by how it treat's its children. Aren't we a sad lot on that list? Get your selfish thoughts off of 'YOUR BODIES' and 'YOUR RIGHTS' and put a face and a smile with that person disposed of in the garbage can.

And as long as this forum is a public forum...I will preach whenever and where ever I feel and if that makes you uncomfortable...then you need to examine why?

[fritoman]

it is a parasite until about 5 months along(then it might be able to live on its own) feeding off the mother. If she doesnt want it feeding off of her then she should be able to have it removed, and then who ever wants it can have it, but I am not getting into this :unsure:

[GRITS]

Reading the scriptures it appears as if abortion is a way of returning the child to a loving God who "knew thee" before he was placed in the womb and maybe that is the way it was meant to be....God wants that particular individual to be back with him quickly in the arms of someone who will love and nuture them, so he choses a woman who choses to end the pregnancy, who are we to make that judgement on a decision made sometimes in haste but sometimes after much deliberation and prayers, you may take issue with what Judas did, but it was preordained and while I can not quote scriptures, I do recall it was "God's will". I am not arrogant enough to think that I know "what" God wants for me much less others....all decisions in our lives should be contemplated and for those who are of religious intent the contemplation should come with sincere prayers...then the decisions made are those that God has helped you make even if they don't fit perfectly in the morals of man

[Quickening]

Reading the scriptures it appears as if abortion is a way of returning the child to a loving God who "knew thee" before he was placed in the womb and maybe that is the way it was meant to be....God wants that particular individual to be back with him quickly in the arms of someone who will love and nuture them, so he choses a woman who choses to end the pregnancy, who are we to make that judgement on a decision made sometimes in haste but sometimes after much deliberation and prayers, you may take issue with what Judas did, but it was preordained and while I can not quote scriptures, I do recall it was "God's will". I am not arrogant enough to think that I know "what" God wants for me much less others....all decisions in our lives should be contemplated and for those who are of religious intent the contemplation should come with sincere prayers...then the decisions made are those that God has helped you make even if they don't fit perfectly in the morals of man

I really like that and for the most part agree.

[evil_admin]

This "debate" seems more like a sermon than "a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides."

Maybe the debate should be switched over to Evangelical Christianity...pros and cons!

[FreeFall]

If a 14 year old girl is raped by her mentally handi-capped uncle, would you expect her to keep this child?

[PIX]

At what point did the discussion turn from NOT being regulated between two matched sides?

There aren't too many pro-lifers like myself who can seperate God from the debate for the preservation
of undefendable life in the womb. Don't diffuse the debate by attacking Christianity and getting off
the plainly laid out arguements.

GRITS, as usual, gives a very honest and well said point. However, it is up to God to determine when and how
a child is to return to Him, not us. One can take predestination and run with it so much that your head will
spin. People should not EVER think they know God's will for each person, but He left us a very reliable handbook
that has been under attack since the manuscripts were first written.

Ok...let's change this to a simple debate.
Side 1...state your view.
Abortion is bad.
Ok..thank you side 1. Side 2 state your view.
Women have a right to choose what to do with their bodies.
Ok..thank you side 2.
Side 1 explain your reason that it is bad.
It is bad because......well......(I can't say it's murder because that references Judeo-Christian law and anything dealing with morals is higher being related)....uhhh...it's bad because it harms the woman mentally by filling her with tremendous guilt later down the road and in many cases, physically harming the woman and preventing pregnancy later.

AMEN and PRAISE THE LORD!!!

PS. Frito....father to father, take a look at your healthy beautiful boy you got (Lil Frito). If you feel for your kids like me, you
probably can't imagine that kid not being around and saddens you to think about it. Now reverse the clock all the way back
to when he was that little 'parasite' in the womb. He's still the same person dude....honestly, he is. Just because he isn't into
CS and skateboards yet doesn't make him any different. I know you love that boy like I love mine. When you put it in that perspective,
do you think of that 'parasite' as a non-creature? That's YOUR gift. I love ya bro.

[evil_admin]

......(I can't say it's murder because that references Judeo-Christian law and anything dealing with morals is higher being related)....

In case you were not aware...morals do not come only from Judism and Christianity. Plenty of non-Christians and even atheists have morals.

[Quickening]

......(I can't say it's murder because that references Judeo-Christian law and anything dealing with morals is higher being related)....

In case you were not aware...morals do not come only from Judism and Christianity. Plenty of non-Christians and even atheists have morals.

Lets focus on Abortion.

[PIX]

Freefall...how often would the following situation come into fruition (spell) :

If a 14 year old girl is raped by her mentally handi-capped uncle, would you expect her to keep this child?

Would you NOT know that in 14 years of this girl's life that your mentally handicapped uncle would have the propensity
to sexually attack a minor? Unless it is one of those 'When Animals Attack" things.

If it was my daughter, I would pray my guts out and ask for direction from God. Prayer does work.

You can't pick and choose your battles and decisions like picking wallpaper. That's what a hypocrite would do. Adoption
is ALWAYS a choice.

Adoption is an alternative to abortion.

[Gwarsbane]

Actually this is a private board that is open to the public. If we ask that you not preach here then you need to respect that.


Now back on topic.

You say that the baby did no wrong (which is correct) when a girl/woman is raped so it should be born. But you TOTALLY ignored the fact that the girl/woman is raped that she never asked to be raped. Anyone who is raped (male or female) have a hard enough time trying to not think about what happened to them. Don't you think that it could hurt that woman mentally knowing every day for nine months that there is someone inside her that she did not willfully want with that person? And then once the baby is born even if she don't keep the baby she will know for the rest of her life that someone that was not born out of love is out in the world.

I know for a fact that if I was a woman and was raped, I would not want a child to come from me who was not concieved out of love.

it's bad because it harms the woman mentally by filling her with tremendous guilt later down the road and in many cases, physically harming the woman and preventing pregnancy later.

As I said above it would hurt a women just as much mentally to be reminded EVERY SINGLE DAY that she was violated, maybe even more so.

As to physically harming the woman and preventing pregnancy later... sure if you use a clothes hanger for the abortion which they don't.

Most of the time today if its with in a few days of being raped they give some pills to cause the lining to come off of the inner wall of the uterus which normally happens each month anyway when a woman is not pregnant. Usually in that time the sperm and egg have not even come close to each other.

There are other abortion metheds and some of them I don't agree with at all, but if it saves a womans life then I say go for it, but only if it really really needs to be done and as long as she says ok (unless shes in a coma or something and can't then someone else might have to).

However, it is up to God to determine when and how a child is to return to Him, not us

Did you ever think that god determined that we should have free will so that we can decide stuff like this.

If its him/her/it that determines when we return to him/her/it then why did god give humans the free will to develop stuff like abortion?

Also the books that you claim as "a very reliable handbook" was only started about 2000 years ago (by a human) and has been rewritten so many times that its not even the same handbook as the one that was first made. Sure some parts are the same but most of it is totoally different.

The only reason you can say that abortion is bad is because some book that some man wrote for others that believed the same way he did says so. I have not seen any proof that there is or that there isn't a god. I have seen no proof either that said god passed down him/her/its word to some guy to write down in a book.

And also because you don't like it now.


The only reason I can say that abortion is ok (not good but not bad) is because I believe in a persons free will to choose what happens to their own body.

[Wha?]

As nice as it would be for everyone to embrace their gift of life, not everybody is a successful white collar professional. Some people have lives which suck to a degree incomprehensable by us. To them, their life is something they never wanted, and never asked for, yet they are still told to kiss up to the one who put them there. Denying them things based on a middle-class rubrick is just crass. It's a different ball game, and what's good for the goose may not be so great for the finch.

The rights of a child are important, and waiving the rights of a pre-child is, ostensibly, abhorrible. However, situations exist where such actions are justified. Instead of trying to get rid of abortion outright or deregulate it totally, since all-or-nothing is such a stupid way to go about things, how about this:

Until such time as conditions exist where abortion can, in good (non-religious) conscience, be abolished, all citizens will contribute, through taxation, child support payments for all non-aborted ebryos/fetuses under legal custody of parties incapable of making such payments themselves, without risking their current standard of life, so long as the parties themselves are impoverished, or will become impoverished making said payments.

Should any of the following conditions be met:
[*]The legal custodian(s) be deemed unfit for parenthood
[*]Habits of the legal custodian(s) will cause irreparable harm to the embryo/fetus
[*]The child be known to have disorders which will present chronic suffering
[*]Financial standing of the parent(s) is deemed too low to support a child with federal aid
[*]The legal custodian(s) will lose their home should they be forced to support a child with federal aid
[*]The parent(s) cannot afford hospitalization due to pregnancy related events, with federal aid
[*]The health and wellbeing of the child bearer is at risk should the pregnancy continue, or the child be born
Abortion may be considered an option, so long as there are no suitable persons willing to adopt the child, within a reasonable time frame after birth.

::PostScript::
Technically, who you are currently is not who you were. The basic capacity and method with which one interprets and stores events post-birth are genetic. Beyond that, it's a product of your experiences.

[Gwarsbane]

PS. Frito....father to father, take a look at your healthy beautiful boy you got (Lil Frito). If you feel for your kids like me, you
probably can't imagine that kid not being around and saddens you to think about it. Now reverse the clock all the way back
to when he was that little 'parasite' in the womb. He's still the same person dude....honestly, he is. Just because he isn't into
CS and skateboards yet doesn't make him any different. I know you love that boy like I love mine. When you put it in that perspective,
do you think of that 'parasite' as a non-creature? That's YOUR gift. I love ya bro.

One slight problem with your argument there, FritoJr was wanted and was loved from the start. Frito didn't rape his wife.

Freefall...how often would the following situation come into fruition (spell) :

If a 14 year old girl is raped by her mentally handi-capped uncle, would you expect her to keep this child?

Would you NOT know that in 14 years of this girl's life that your mentally handicapped uncle would have the propensity to sexually attack a minor? Unless it is one of those 'When Animals Attack" things.

If it was my daughter, I would pray my guts out and ask for direction from God. Prayer does work.

Actually it happens more often then you realize, but lets drop out the mentally handicapped uncle, and swap in some stranger from the local area. Or a girl is dating a guy, he wan't sex, she don't so he rapes her. These 2 things happen far more often. I think I heard a static a few years back about how 1 in 10 or 1 in 8 girls will be raped by the time they turn 18.

In my opionion prayer does not work. I have seen too many people who are as religious or more then you are pray their guts out when they are sick, or someone in their family is sick or when their child is hurt and their praying didn't do squat.

If you think praying helps then pray that no one will ever be raped or murdered ever again. Soon as I hear that rape and murder cases have dropped to zero and as long as they stay at zero right across the world I will be right there beside you, heck i'll do ya one better I will join the preist hood or what ever and dedicate my life to praying to god every single day and night.

Sorry for going offtopic, but I had to answer that.

[Wha?]

Prayer can be dangerous, since a lot of people rely on it to fix things when they can do something about the situation themselves.

[Miagi]

I don't think abortion should be let up to males though to decide what a female is allowed to do. Though you have the male side who are fathers or soon to be fathers(wife presently pregnant), they should have a say.

Only way I think abortion is right is... only if the child will suffer from some sort of extreme pain in the future or might die with the mother, but I still can't say yes or no for life or death. As far as if the child is mentally ill... My aunt is pregnant right now, she does not care whether her baby is abnormal or not, I feel the same way.

With people saying they just don't want the baby and that it was a mistake, there is a thing called putting your child up for adoption. Eight months later you learn a lesson and your child should be with loving parents. Though the adoption system doesn't always work so.

I can't actually sit here and tell people what to do, it's only how I feel and this is coming from a 17 year old who tries to see the world as it really is.

Notice how I "forgot" to include religion?

[PIX]

Actually this is a private board that is open to the public. If we ask that you not preach here then you need to respect that.

Actually this is the Debates section. I guess someone 'preaching' is a little too hot for people here and doesn't count in the subheader
about "entering at own risk and it can get a very heated. Ban me for preaching....I don't care....I've had worse than cgi-select authority.
Yea it's hot in here but seeing I'm only voicing my opinon for my beliefs and you don't like it....that's a little off in the debate category. I
don't remember it saying "warning....stick to OUR beliefs and offend no one or leave."

The statement about Don's son has NOTHING TO DO ABOUT RAPE. If you read his post earlier about a parasite..it was in response to that.
It was between a father to a father. You'll understand what I was saying to him one day.

Wha? you do have some valid points there in your proposal. I was waiting on your analytical response. Very good.
But Why? don't count out prayer. I've seen it work...and it wasn't some group hypnosis or mass illusion either.

The theory of this is "to debate but not divide". I see this is a very emotional topic and will never be resolved here. I pray that NO ONE here
has to make the decisions discussed in this thread. I have made those decisions, good AND bad and have to live with them.

PS. Gwar...strike the above...it is someone's paid server and they CAN do what they want with it. Forgive me for being disrespectful. I wish I could
share a cup O joe with ya one day.

Magi: It's easy to not include their faith in topics. People have been doing it for thousands of years and getting better and better.

[FreeFall]

my post was an exaggeration. You took it and played on a technicality. anywho..

1.Abortion happens while the baby isn't cognizant. It's a membrane taking in nourishment to become a human being. You kill bacteria, bacteria is a single cell organism. so, why exactly is it wrong to get rid of an organism within the womb (yes i realize it isn't a single cell, but it's not exactly a human yet either)? And don't say because they are our gifts, because that comment contradicts the one about children's rights. Calling them our gift in my view is seeing them as an object of ours that we can do what we will with.

2.If the child is illigitimate (rape) and the female who carries it is at a very young age, how can you expect that the child would have even a remotely good life knowing that their biological father was a sex offender and that your mother is almost the same age as you. I don't care how much you say prayer works, it can't turn a life around and make everything a-ok, and it sure as hell can't turn back time.

3.If the child is concieved by means of stupid unprotected sex, then those two should have to live up to their actions, but seeing child birth as a punishment doesn't sound like a very loving family.

4.(unrelated to above) Gwarsbane, while preaching can be annoying to some and make others feel uncomfortable, you can't just unallow it. Diplomats aren't fun.

[PIX]

Freefall....I spent last night in turmoil wondering how one can work wonders in a sea of difference. I woke with the
realization that I can do nothing. I can only speak my mind and toss seeds to the ground and hope some sprout and
grow some roots. It is not my job to convict and change minds but His.

Simply put, we will never agree on what moment life truly begins. That is the ENTIRE turning point of the whole debate.
Most people here feel that it is just a blob of cells and it doesn't matter. In my mind and the mind of others in my faith,
it is life at the start and we just want to take up for it as any other person needing help here. Whether it's a little boy
in Thailand, a little girl in Sudan, a homeless man living in a refrigerator box or a unborn human...I am to do all I can to
give each of those people a chance. Sure words are cheap....deeds show your fruit. I didn't always do what I should have
but I am changing and am helping one person at a time, no matter how little the help is.

One last thing Freefall. I have to raise one point on your comment

1.Abortion happens while the baby isn't cognizant.

Does this mean it's ok to kill someone who is sleeping or under sedation?

[evil_admin]

The topic of abortion has certainly been debated by greater minds than the collective here so I seriously doubt that anyone will be swayed.

Some thoughts and information I have learned over the years regarding the abortion debate is that there is much more at stake than just abortion. I believe everyone would agree that it would be better if an abortion never needed to be performed. That is the goal I believe in...that instead of making it illegal and forcing woman to go back to having it done illegally and unsafely, we work towards a community where there is no need.

A big part of that is contraception, pro-choicers favor most contraception methods while most pro-lifers are against most. An interesting piece of information I learned one day while listening to a talk show on a religious radio station was that the percentage of college students getting abortions at evangelical colleges was about the same as the rate for college students overall. One would think the abortion rate would be zero, or at least close to it.

Abortion is a very personal decision and touches a person's heart. We can debate scenarios but we cannot see what is in a person's heart. I favor pro-choice because I cannot and will not put myself in a position to dictate to someone else, that I no nothing about, what decision they should make. Abortion opponents will quickly jump on the extreme wagon, like what about stealing, murder, drug-abuse, etc.

Well, we aren't discussing those issues and as my earlier post came under fire for pointing out that non-Christians have morals, I will refrain from bringing up subjects that do not pertain to the the debate subject in the eyes of the administration of this forum.

[PIX]

Evil....good points.

Don't lump all Christians with thoughts and practices of Catholics and their no contraceptive doctrine.
Protestants firmly believe in abstinance as the number one way to prevent abortion. However, this was
frowned down upon by some liberal and world politicians as being 'cruel' and 'inhumain'. To me it's not 'using' contraceptives
that is the problem but how you administer and teach these devices to people. We have to teach our young
people that you should abstain until maturity or marriage and that you can't babysit your youth by giving them
condoms to make it safe and better. I believe in preventing the conception from the get-go before it begins
a life.

Ya can't use the comparison of secular vs religious universities or any organization. I went to a Christian High School for
8 years and there weren't any Christians in my senior class. Most people go to a private religious school for reasons other
than religion.

Evil....I don't think any one should have a will imposed on them. But when society determines, hands down when life begins and
stops raising and lowering the bar to make people feel warm and fuzzy about their decisions, then do you not think there should
be broad limits on broad standing abortion as it is now. Society has packaged abortion into a nice neat grande latte. Everyone's
doing it and it's fast and easy to get. Leave your humanity at the door however.

[[CAKE]anonymity]

ohhh new debate booourns. Ok, i didnt read all of it, cuz of time restraints mainly, but i will say my bit, and let PIX yell at me:Pand forgive me for stating something that someone already has.

I do belive that abortions arent taking a life, however i think that its the closest thing you get to it. Some ppl use abortions as a birth control method, which I think is wrong because it still doesnt promote the responsibility involved with sex. I think with the diffrent types of contraceptives available that should help cut down on unplanned pregnancies, but even with those, they dont work 100% of the time. I think its like 99 or 98%, so thats one or two ppl in a hundred who will get pregant. These are still the people who were responsible enough to practice safe sex. I think those people are entitled to get an abortion, because it really wasnt their fault if they got pregant.

I'm sure this is a very small percentage of the people who get pregnant and seek an abortion, but it is still a percentage none the less. What about sexual assualt victims? I think it is very unfair that a woman gets assualted like that, but would you want to tell this person she has to raise a child to? Would she be a fit mother? I could see some of those women being quite neglectful and depressed, especially considering you just told them they were forced to raise this child. What will this do to the kid?

I dont know the demographics of the age range of who gets an abortion, but i would imagine a large amount of those women would be quite young, around 15 or 16. Most 16 year olds couldnt raise a kid. When you look at all the responsibilities that lie on to parents, i dont think a 16 or 17 year old could do it. Some have, some have done a truly excellent job, but i have a feeling those are a small minority. If you look at a large number of the sociological debates we have had on these forums and we ask who is to blame, its usually bad parenting. A parent who can have a child on their own terms will be a better one.

[PIX]

Anon....you know I have NEVER yelled at you!:lol:
It's about time you piped in...I was wondering....

[16]

Without reading pretty much all of this thread and not responding to anyone elses posts or aware if I'm just repeating facts, here I go.

I believe abortion should be an allowed choice. Why? Because accidents happen, take a look at birth control percentages, the highest possible % is something like 99.95% protection, that being through means of vasectomy or tubual ligation or some various BC methods (pill, jab etc.). Now if someone is taking their precautions as means to avoid having a baby, why should they be burdened with one when they may not want, or be prepared (financially, emotionally etc.) to have one? I'm aware that some people think that if you're not fully prepared to have a baby you shouldn't be having sex, but really, that argument doesn't stop A LOT of people.

As well, if I'm not mistaken, a baby isn't even aware of it's own being until about two or three months of being in the womb therefor you wouldn't be taking the life of an actual living being because to be technical to be living you have to be breathing and thinking on your own (in some form) as well as having a full set of organs (the one exception to organs being birth defects).

Will add more when it comes to me.

[FreeFall]

One last thing Freefall. I have to raise one point on your comment QUOTE 
1.Abortion happens while the baby isn't cognizant.

Does this mean it's ok to kill someone who is sleeping or under sedation?

When i say cognizant, I mean concious of living.. be that subconcious or not, we are always concious of our life. I believe any living creature is cognizant and if something is not, then it's not living (ie. a rock isn't aware of any life). I probably could've worded it better though.

EDIT: While cells too are living, they as a group make up a being, and so I don't see them as being living creatures themselves.