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ye old "spectate" command
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06-26-2003, 02:43 PM
i see how it could be fun for deathmatch, but for arena there really is no point (assuming we live in a perfect world w/o "white disc" of course). so, do we really need "spectate"?...or is it's only pupose to avoid white-disc and float around the arena annoying noobs.
06-26-2003, 03:17 PM
Yes. We need spectate for DM's like 2v2...
06-26-2003, 03:44 PM
ok, i'm willing to concede that the spectate command is a good addition for DM (actually, i never argued against that point), but for arena, well...who cares? chances are you are using the command when you should be playing or are trying to avoid a white-disc dilema, but suppose the white-disc problem is fixed.
look i don't want to give away the store here, but i got a plan (i guess it's all too obvious what that plan is...^_^)...i need some input. now, if u have no opinion on the spectate thing, at least tell me how you would like to see white-disc fixed, namely: 1) player is penalized and loses a round for falling right before a round count-down (terribly easy fix btw). 2) player is NOT penalized and the round is delayed (some wankers may keep delaying the game creating an exploit here...so think about it) btw, don't worry about 2v2...when team dm is finished...you can have all the different possiblities and combinations you want. don't look for that tommorow btw...^_^
06-26-2003, 04:48 PM
I use the spectate command in arena when I think I'm not actually gonna play but more watch and monitor... so it's useful there too :-D
06-26-2003, 05:02 PM
umm..don't u just spawn automatically into the next round? besides...i have nothing against spectating...i just want to see it done at appropriate times (like if you finish a game early or just connect to the server). my problem is w/ people binding the command "spectate" to a key and pressing that key at their own whim. there is no need for it...except for reasons previously mentioned (either avoid white-disc or cause havoc and mayhem).
i know how to do much damage w/ the spectate command and obviously others do to. (edit: the word 'damage' is actually inproperly used here...i am not aware of a spectate exploit which could potentialy crash te server). i'm thinking it should be gone (in arena mode only, DM is fine)...when a client tries to send their own "spectate" msg to the server, it should be ignored. ok, u happy?...the proverbial cat is out of the bag ^_^.
06-26-2003, 05:23 PM
But again, I just repeat what I said earlier... I do use it... What you really should fix is the bug that allows them to play whilst in spectator mode ;-) Fix the problem / cause, not the user:P
06-26-2003, 06:37 PM
argh!!! can u give me a specific example of how u use it? maybe, then, i can i see your point...otherwise, we are going to keep going around in circles on this...lol.
i'm not some fascist hack (well, at least i'm not fascist)...i want to make the game better (i.e. more fun) as well as bug free. keep in mind that i am not talking about spectate modes (or giving the user the ability to change them)...it's about the client being able to move himself into spectate whenever the bloody hell he feels like it. as of right now, i doubt anyone would legitamately miss it. don't forget there is another spectate bug where everybody in the game spawns in one arena.
06-26-2003, 06:44 PM
I would legitimately miss it, for those reasons already stated... and other more personal loving and friendly ones.. it's never harmed me before..... ..... ... ....
06-26-2003, 06:54 PM
i use spectate everytime i fall "late", so I lose a round but still get to play the rest of the game
06-26-2003, 06:56 PM
specific example please?...look i don't want to take anything enjoyable away from the game.
i just don't understand how and why u use it...that's all. if your busy spectating, when u should be playing an opponent, then shame on ye. the other night, some guy (actually some 'dude'...lol) got banned for repeatedly exploiting the spectator bug...it was damn annoying...i wanted to play, and where was he? it's not just about being able to be some factor in another client's match...but he also made it less fun for the person he was supposed to be playing. look, all i need is a good reason not to and i won't bother...i'll find some other avenue...but the way i suggested is a lot easier, fixes any problem that remotely has to do w/ client-driven spectate commands and has probably fewer potential complications compared to fixing the actual exploit(s). and frito, imagine that the problem of "white-disc" is no more and that you can finish a game no matter when you fall. btw, feel free to answer my question (on the second post of this thread) concerning that very problem.
ok it really isnt spectating, what happens when you push the spectate it makes it look like you have just spawned back into the game, but you havent yet, you have to wait till the next round starts and then you will respawn and the game will be white disc free
you should try it is really cool how it works when you fall late bind i "spectate" and it isnt when you push enter in the game when you are spawning, and wind up in someone elses match, it is totally different. and when you spectate you cant kill anyone, they cant see you in game but you can see them
06-26-2003, 07:29 PM
The spectator bug is something different to SPECTATE acid... don't get the two confused :-D
06-26-2003, 08:54 PM
heres when i use it
jumpin around kill the guy jump around some more you mess up jumping and u start to fall you know that the next round is gonna start soon so instead of risking whitedisc or losing the round to a stupid mistake i hit spectate i spawn as soon as the counter starts and everyone is happy leave it in...it does no harm
06-26-2003, 10:42 PM
alrighty then, i have three votes to keep spectate the way it is...that's enough for me, so therfore, i won't screw w/ it.
it seems like what you people are telling me is that you use "spectate" to avoid white-disc or losing the next round...well, what if you fell late and the code knew that and spawned you in at the appropriate time such that there were no problems w/ either? you would still be upset that you couldn't send a spectate command to the server? frito pointed out something interesting to me and that is that the spectate command doesn't actually cause the exploit. i'll start looking in that direction then. btw, i have a key bound to "spectate" too to avoid the same issues, so i know. but, i been playing and i know about these things...noobs don't. wouldn't it be nice if the code did the work for you so you don't have to furiously jab at a key when things go awry?
06-26-2003, 11:10 PM
probibly kermit.
but why get rid of the spectate command? it doesn't cuase any negative effects. if you want something else to fix take a look at the usekey bug. find a way so that it doesn't restrict your movement while still doing it's intended effect. the temporary solution of disabling it works fine for the arena servers but not for the dm ones (currently usekey is enabled on the dm server).
06-26-2003, 11:37 PM
i'll make sure i get in touch w/ you about the "use" key thing rush. i'm not that familar w/ it but it doesn't sound like it should be difficult.
i will NOT mess w/ the "spectate" command (it's 4-0 vote in favor of keeping it btw)...but i will fix white disc and by that, i mean, redesigning the code to do what pique does manually in the case of a "late" fall...unless.... i really want to get your guys input here. w/ a new hl patch, maybe these problems will go away but probably not...i'm skeptical as to wether or not valve gives a shit about ricochet these days.
06-27-2003, 04:52 AM
There's already a patch for the USE key bug, may contact that Author for what they did.... ?
06-27-2003, 01:49 PM
doesn't the patch just disable the USE key completely?
06-27-2003, 02:00 PM
Currently there is a plugin which blocks the USE key completely. However, Valve sent me the area of the code where it is contained. I haven't looked at it yet but I was thinking at the very least we could block it on arena maps and allow it on DM maps, although the best fix would be to not allow the USE key to block push discs.
06-27-2003, 02:31 PM
my thoughts exactly :-D
06-27-2003, 03:10 PM
The usekey in any HL game makes you go really slow, essentially anchoring you to the ground. Ricochet had an undesired side effect that made you so anchored that you couldn't be pushed. However, I've noticed that in CS, it used to slow you down, but now it doesn't. So maybe figure out how they did it.
06-27-2003, 03:25 PM
i don't think that the slower-velocity of the player is the problem (u get pushed the same no matter if you walk or stand still)...i first thought the problem was the checks and searches that the player does when he presses the use key, but that didn't pan out...although there is a slew of linear algebra going on when u do press the use key...your searching for a usable object basically w/ in a certain radius.
the function in player.cpp called PlayerUse (a function of the CBasePlayer class) handles the use key for the client...but i don't think the problem is there at this point...i'm going to look at the nature of the push disc itself. what happens if you 'block' a disc in mid-air? does the player get pushed like they should or is he able to block the disc? i dunno...haven't seen it but i'm probably going to go to a DM server and find out. 
wow a real experiment that is so cool .asm:thumb:
the use key causes the player to go extremly slow, and stopping them on the dot. In the air it wont work cause...your in the air. It only works if the player is on the ground and pushes it...you can still use the usekey in vads server when u jump and then land...hold the use key when ur landing and you will stop on the dime. The problem in cs with the usekey was that if u pushed it, you would stop and you would have the aim of not moving at all. so you could be walking around with the awp, push use key, and have perfect aim. Do what they did in cs and i can guarentee you the usekey bug will not be a problem anymore. And you cant use the hullu fix in dm cause some maps like crossfire need the use key to push elevators.
06-27-2003, 04:13 PM
i read that the programmers for the firearms mod fixed a use key exploit in their own game. i e-mailed them asking if they could point us in the right direction on this. so, hopefully one community can help another here :).
pique, just redesign the maps to have floor-triggers like at a supermarket or something. don't flame me, it was anon's idea...lol
what are you talking about? its not the map...you can do it in arena. All you gotta do to fix the use key is make it so you aren't, as gboy put it, anchored down.
oooo...no im not blaming you...im just saying we cant use our current fix for dm servers 
06-27-2003, 08:09 PM
I was wondering if it would be better to make it easier to cause the glitches/bugs/exploits, instead of guessing at what's happening and poking around until it works.
Par example: Half-Life console guides always gave a warning about making complex binds to gauss jump and such, saying that if you died while a +action was going on, you wouldn't respawn until you turned it off with the appropriate -action. From my experience, holding down keys had the same result. I'm not sure how the old arena would have handled white-discing, but I do know holding +jump kept you from respawning in the dm maps (you just kept falling, no specator mode), and recreating that effect would allow white-discing at any time, which would aid in debuging. 
06-27-2003, 10:31 PM
What does it matter? White disc isn't that big of a deal in my opinion.
06-27-2003, 10:46 PM
If you could play with the white disc bug, or yo could play without, which would you actually prefer?
06-28-2003, 12:21 AM
If it gets fixed, 2v2 would be much easier to play. Just have the server force players to respawn instantly if a match (that they happen to be a part of) is underway. Instead of just having the game respawn people whenever a match starts, also have it respawn them if the match is still going on.
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