We really need some new maps...

[_Acid_Head_]

rc_arena is a fun map yes, but it's starting to get trivial for most people, it's no longer a real challenge unless you play somebody of equal skill. I'm starting a mapping project, I'm trying to make a decent, small, simple (yet challenging) map like arena that will gain the same amount of attention and popularity. I urge others to do the same, at least try to make a simple Ricochet map, who know's, it could be the one we all need to keep the game alive, even if you aren't a HL mapper (hell, I know I'm not), if you're computer literate, it shouldn't be too hard making a RC map, provided is a link to a guide for ricochet mappers:

http://kingnic2k.tripod.com/ricochet.htm

Pique (or anybody else that's made a map for Ricochet), if you have any advice, please input, I would really like to get something going.

[[CAKE]rUsh]

The other person to talk to about maps would be Wha.
he made rc_simplex and rc_deathmatch4 and is currently working on a new arena map.

you can find him often in irc.gamesnet in the #m1nt channel.

Wha? also has good configs for the pads that were wrong in the package or something...i'm sure he'll clear this up.

as to making a map...i might but first i want to take a look at the code to see if i can work out some of the bugs.

and finnally i'll suggest again putting in a seperate section for maps so we could get this going a bit without the confusion of having it mixed in with the other posts.

[Wha?]

That site only helps a little, so I'll add my own research and experience to this thread.
Yes, research. I'm something of a perfectionist when it comes to things that deserve effort. So, naturally when I decided (many, many months ago) to make my own map for Ricochet (this was before rc_tower, and after dm3 and teamarena), I spent a couple weeks examining the maps from noclip (load the map from the main menu's console with map <mapname> after setting sv_cheats to 1) and from sketches drawn all over my school notes. I found some interesting things.

• dm1 is a perfect 3x3 square<>
  
• level 1 and 2 of dm2 are identical<>
  
• the isosceles right triangle is prevalent, and seems to be the key to level design<>
  
• level geometry is directly related to how playable the map is<>
  
• rails/bars/whatever are arranged after the pads and jumps are placed to create shots<>
  
• pads are 20 sided cylinders, and the Valve prefabs are only 10<>
  
• jumps are set at incriments of 45° (with rc_arena holding the only exception)<>
  
• pads rarely have more than 2 or 3 jumps on them<>
  
• the little four-squares thingy in the middle of arena is inside a clipping brush<>
  [st]There are a couple more, but I can't think of them right now.
  
  Decompiling maps is the easiest way to get things sized right. You just have to make your own brushes, because the ones winBSP gives you are full of problems (at least they are for me), but carving (for the love of god, dont do this for pads, just use the cylinder tool) makes it really easy, becuse all you need is a block. Just remember that cliupping brishes don't show up, so you have to do a little field research to find them. It's not hard, besides, they're there to make the map play better. If the clipping brush wasn't in the middle of rc_arena, you'd fall throuh every now and then (the hole in the middle is exactly the same size as the player).
  
  This is important, so make sure your designs have it in mind:
  PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS GO TO THE TOP OF THE MAP AND STAY THERE
  It's not just because that's where powerups go. It's one of several &quot;n00b instincts&quot; that almost everybody has.
  
  I try to keep distances between adjacent pads the same as they are in dm1 and dm2, to keep game speeds up. Another for-the-love-of-god is pad size (never alter this unless you have a really good idea) and level geometry. Most custom maps were made without the slightest bit of consideration of factors that make the valve maps good. Where are they now? Do you want that to happen to your map?
  Look at the work of Buckminsterfuller (or his atomic counterpart, carbon) for inspiration if you have to. Just remember that triangular geometry keeps a level visually interesting, and simple to build, but offers more mobility than most other shapes.
  
  The texture on top of the rails/bars/whatever is called &quot;strip1a&quot; www.ricochet-mod.de.vu has the best ricochet.wad and also has the .fgd (no sense in going somehwere else when it's on the same page) and that texture is not to be aligned properly with the face of the brush. It is meant to provide a reflective look, and needs to be between 22° and 67° off when being applied.
  One (majorly) annoying glitch in worldcraft (now &quot;Valve Hammer Editor&quot;) is deforming the diagonal pieces in teleporters. By the way, remember to at least try to align your teleporters' textures properly. Valve didn't and it looks really bad. The ricochet.wad I use has several different varieties of pad textures, but remember red and blue is classic fps dm colouring. Don't take that as discouragement, but it's tradition to use red and blue (look at the first two players to join a dm server).
  
  If you want to make a map, I would suggest doing your own research period to find out what people like, don't like, know how to do, etc. In simplex, I made it deliberatley similar to dm1, which was everybody's favourite map at the time. Many of the moves were the same, despite having little physical resemblence. Make sure that you make a map for a demographic because players vary, and not everybody will like your map. Be sure to have people tell you the truth, so a sitcom type dilema never gets set up. Anyway, when I did research, I learned a lot about the game, it's designers, and it's mappers. That helps to understand what a map is supposed to feel like, and what playing it should give the people. I spent a long time on arena3 before even touching a computer. I used K'NEX to build a scale model, since it has many of the same rules as rico map geometry. Real mappers have a lot of useful tips, and that is one of them. Just made sketches of different ideas you have, and it gets easier to get those ideas on the screen when you go to actually make it.
  
  Crucial is the trigger_discreturn. It is the players best friend. Use them wisely. This is another area Valve messed up. Those mappers most likely had poor feedback from play testers (or the play testers were bad), because they left the top and bottom of the map devoid of these godly brush-based entities. That left it open to disc travel. Discs move pretty fast, but it still takes a long time to get three rebounds in the sky. I have spent many a map cycle swearing at those mappers, because I have to wait a good 15 seconds to get my discs back (I'm a decap jockey, go figure) and that's time I can't kill and have fun. I now trucate the corners of space outside the map with triger_discreturns to keep disc return time lower.
  
  I'm not sure why, and it is without precident, but spawning inside somebody causes them to die. Such spawning has never happened in the entire time I've known this game. I leave that up to the people chasing down bugs in the source. I do know that valve stacks player spawns in dm1. Each of the spawn pads has 3 info_player_deathmatch entities 28 units apart. That triples the number of spawns available. Though they seem to have forgotten that those still need to be facing the centre of the map for a higher level of continuity for the players. Arena has that going for it.
  
  I almost forgot, there is another ftlog to add. MOBILITY
  Player enjoyment is what keeps maps on servers, so make sure they aren't bored to tears while they try to play. Think of mapping as writing music for a career. If there aren't many people who share your view of what &quot;good&quot; is, it's fine if you do it anyway, just don't expect to be a multi billionaire with millions of adoring fans. Come to think of it, that's good advice all around.
  
  That's all I can think of at present. Hope it helps somebody.

[_Acid_Head_]

Wow, thanks a lot for the input 'Wha?'.

[Ichigo]

i cant remember if Wha? mentioned it cuz i kinda forgot most of his post by the time i'd finished reading it (damn that was long) but a 2 floor arena map wud deffinately improve gameplay, you've got further to run away (if ure playing sum1 like Pique &gt;.&lt;) and it gives time for ure disk to come back, esp if its a freeze disk and will take forever. Plus there wud b sum nice top floor down to bottom floor jumps to try out, not so much bottom to top tho... but i still think it wud b a nice map

[Pique]

I tried to make a multi level map for 2v2. But i didn't want someone camping there so i added in those angled bumpers (damn those things took a long time to perfect). That was a good point in 2v2. The bad point in 2v2 is that i didn't make it jumper friendly. I have a arrow facing every direction possible on every pad and its damn near impossible to get a good....fancy jump in there. If you do make a map multi level PLEASE dont use teleports but experiment with bumpers. Teleports can only go in one spot...but a bumper has unlimited potential. Oh...and dont hack maps...thats just ######

[Wha?]

hack maps?

Please elaborate.

[PuNkGirL]

a 2 level arena map, that looked like someone took rc_arena and stacked rc_arena on top of it. That would be pretty cool in my opinion... of course it may be too big so it would probably have to be 2v2, and we all know htat doesn't work... so now that i think about it i have no idea why i am posting this...

[Pique]

hack maps?

Please elaborate.

I hacked crossfire, I hacked stalkyard.

[CloudFuel]

ya know...as in took something that was already there...edited it to make it more applicable or simply better...

[Wha?]

ya know...as in took something that was already there...edited it to make it more applicable or simply better...

Isn't that the definition of improve?

And decompiling is a valuable tool for mappers, as long as they dont rip off the original work. For rico it's the only way to get accurate sizes and shapes.

[CloudFuel]

I think hacking is a relative word....basically you can &quot;hack&quot; anything...if it simply means to get into something without permission....or without the owner's consent...also I hear it sometimes used as improving or altering something, as in you hacked a program...you just altered it to fit your needs. Thus hacking could be considered what Pique did...although I don't even know if he had the guy's permission...so we could have two cases for him to be charged with...

[Pique]

First of all it was a JOKE!!!!

And i didn't ask permission of the mappers because it was included with Half-life. I cant be convicted or anything because i can plead &quot;I bought it, it's mine.&quot; also valve wouldn't do that because mods are the only thing bringing in money and if a mod wants to use their stuff then so be it. They even released their own source code...so im sure they aren't too worried about people copying stuff. But I wont hack any custom map because of the copyright issues.

[noxious]

You can decompile any map you like. It's an invaluble learning tool. So long as you don't copy what's there. (not that it would be largely or even somewhat useful anyway).

[Melba Toast]

Okay everybody: thanks to Pique and Wha? and valve
Ive got 2fort getting setup nearly 5 lvls of pads maybe more

up to and capping at 30 people

teams will be red and blue

yes its like the original grab the flag and run weeeeeee
some pads wont have the arrows pointing to them so you have to be l337 to get to them which i know all of you are :)
thats what i have planned for it will keep everyone posted

oh the very top shelf has 8 pads :D
bottom shelf 9 pads ya its going to be big but hopefully worth it

[CloudFuel]

well is it done yet?

- Also I'd like to test it before final release so I can give you feedback...:thumb:

[Melba Toast]

not done yet im getting an error message bad normal

[kermit]

my ultimate goal is to make a rico map...but so far i have only made some crappy hldm maps (they work though B))
i am really exited about making ricochet maps however. i want to make some new arena maps that are as good as rc_arena. after i saw what maps pique did, i really wanted to dive into it. i think if we make some cool maps and post 'em at vadavaka (so pple can dl directly, instead of lagging the server), we can get more pple into rico. i'm sure rc_stalkyard and rc_crossfire have gained interest from hldm players who happened to stumble upon them. i'm pretty busy right now, but during the summer, im going for it!
maybe, if we give our efforts to valve, they'll make their way into an official patch :D

[Pique]

Just got done messing with a new map layout...and i acutally made a good arrow.
The one on the left is the one i made and the one on the right is from the prefab file. See the difference?

[CloudFuel]

yeah that's a pretty cool idea...it's basically like being dropped out of an airplane over a canyon...and you get to jump around on pads in the air...hehehe it's cool. OOOOOH map idea just came upon me! Have pads as clouds! and you jump around in the sky...hehe I like that....

[noxious]

And the pads would be powered by CloudFuel.

[CloudFuel]

ROFL!

[Pique]

actually i just didn't bother to change the sky. I could also use some sugggestions of bumpers. You cant see the whole map but only 4 of the six pads. The layout is as follows
___x

y_____y

x_____x

___y

had to use the _ cause the spaces weren't showing up

With y's only going to ys and X's only going to x's . Any suggestion would be great.

[CloudFuel]

what do you mean by bumpers?

[Pique]

the yellow things in rc_arena that ricochet your disc? i call those bumpers

[CloudFuel]

OH! ok...well then let's see...your basic idea for the map is to have something similar to the top area of deathmatch...and have like 6 pads with corresponding colors being the targets for jumps. So I would imagine unless you plan to have something in the middle...having some barriers there...and all around the back area of the map...that way you can angle your shots and also have them return quicker...